[Dioxin-l] Request for reference
Jon Campbell
Jon.Campbell@MetraTech.com
Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:03:57 -0500
Dr. Schecter,
Thanks very much for the clarification. I had read otherwise, but I
guess my source was incorrect. Do you have data on what contaminants are
usually found and TEQ numbers?
Thanks again
Jon Campbell
-----Original Message-----
From: Arnold Schecter [mailto:ARNOLD.SCHECTER@email.swmed.edu]
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 1:07 PM
To: AFriedmann@ensr.com; hope@igc.org;
dioxin-l-admin@venice.essential.org; dennis.catalano@weyerhaeuser.com
Cc: Evertcc@aol.com; cfpa1@attglobal.net; burnt_paper@hotmail.com;
Jon.Campbell@MetraTech.com; dioxin-l@venice.essential.org
Subject: Re: [Dioxin-l] Request for reference
PCP contains higher chlorinated dioxins and dibenzofurans and usually little
or no tcdd. -Arnold Schecter
Arnold Schecter, MD, MPH
Professor of Environmental Sciences
Univ. of Texas School of Public Health-Dallas
5323 Harry Hines Blvd., V8.112
Dallas, Texas 75235-9128
(214) 648-1096
(214) 648-1081 (Fax)
email: arnold.schecter@email.swmed.edu
email: ajschecter@aol.com
>>> "Friedmann, Andy" <AFriedmann@ensr.com> 01/06/00 10:08AM >>>
Joy,
Would you mind posting the reference(s) regarding the 100,000 ppb of TCDD in
pentachlorophenol? Thanks.
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: Catalano, Dennis [mailto:dennis.catalano@weyerhaeuser.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 10:42 AM
To: Archie Beaton; Archie Beaton; 'hope@igc.org'
Cc: 'david bell'; Evertcc@aol.com; dioxin-l-admin@venice.essential.org;
'Jon Campbell'; dioxin-l@venice.essential.org; Archie Beaton; Archie
Beaton; Archie Beaton
Subject: RE: [Dioxin-l] [Dioxin] Open List?
Joy
What stance do I have on dioxin? I have been in the dioxin analytical
business long before you probably knew what it was. I was only stating that
I did not think TCDD was at 100,000 ppb in pentachlorophenol. I am not
brainwashed, and I have no idea why you feel I am. I usually only respond
to analytical questions on this list and in no way show my stance other than
an analytical chemist on these issues. It is no wonder that some of the
"industrial" folks on this list have a problem with the tone of some of the
"activists". We try to state some facts and just because I have
Weyerhaeuser on my paycheck, I am thrown to the wolves. I am sorry you live
near an antiquated mill, but I have no regrets as to how I feed my family.
Dennis Catalano
dennis.catalano@weyerhaeuser.com
253-924-6242
> ----------
> From: Joy Towles[SMTP:hope@igc.org]
> Reply To: hope@igc.org
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 4:54 PM
> To: Catalano, Dennis; Archie Beaton; Archie Beaton
> Cc: 'david bell'; Evertcc@aol.com; dioxin-l-admin@venice.essential.org;
> 'Jon Campbell'; dioxin-l@venice.essential.org; Archie Beaton; Archie
> Beaton; Archie Beaton
> Subject: Re: [Dioxin-l] [Dioxin] Open List?
>
> Dear Dennis,
> For information on reducing (no, how about stopping?) dioxin in
> effluent,
> product, sludge, sediments, fish, air, and other nasty things that result
> from
> chlorine and chlorine dioxide bleaching pulp and paper mills , please
> contact
> Archie Beaton, if you don't already know him at <cfpa1@attglobal.net>
> or
> ask to get on our pulp and paper discussion group. You might also read
> your
> own industry publications which a few years ago started saying that the
> pulp
> and paper industry must stop the use of chlorine and chlorine dioxide,
> not
> only to stop the creation of dioxins and other nasty organochlorines, but
> also
> to stay financially stable and remain competetive in the marketplace. If
> you
> eat, you should care.
> Not everyone on this list knows that Weyerhauser purchased all of
> Procter &
> Gamble's polluting chlorine-bleaching pulp mills in the U.S. when their
> dirty
> little dioxin secrets were exposed......all the mills except the one down
> here
> in Perry, Florida, that even Weyerhauser's PR guy told me was so antique,
> so
> full of bad problems, that even Weyerhauser didn't want it.
> We am so glad that we now know what you do for a living.........that
> completely explains your stance on this issue. It' quite a pity that you
> are
> so brainwashed by the company by whom you are employed.
>
> Joy
>
> Joy Towles Ezell
> President and Founder
> HOPE (Help Our Polluted Environment) in Taylor County,Florida
> P. O. Box 327
> Salem, Florida 32356
> email: hope@igc.org
> 850 584-7087
>
>
> "Catalano, Dennis" wrote:
>
> > "Penta is the most
> > > dioxin-contaminated commercial chemical, TCDD level upwards of 100,000
> ppb
> > > in some batches. This is a political and economic, not technical
> decision
> > > to
> > > allow this super-toxic poison to be manufactured and sold. It is
> another
> > > PCB-like disaster which is still ongoing."
> > >
> > You state that some batches of penta contain upwards of 100,000 ppb
> TCDD. I
> > would like to see some of those references. I have been in the
> analytical
> > chemistry business for 23 years running dioxin testing for most of that
> time
> > and have never seen thoses kinds of mumbers for TCDD. I would beleive
> OCDD
> > at that kind of level, but most penta (especially newer batches) contain
> > very little or no TCDD. Even so, I would not want my house dipped in
> penta
> > or creosote. The rest of these talks have been interesting to say the
> least
> > over the past week or so.
> >
> > bio:
> >
> > Analytical chemist 23 years experience
> > worked in the consulting business, industial area, environmental
> clean-up
> > area of this field at different stages of my life. Now work for the
> paper
> > industry working on ways to reduce dioxin releases in effluent and
> product.
> >
> > Dennis Catalano
> > dennis.catalano@weyerhaeuser.com
> > 253-924-6242
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Jon Campbell[SMTP:Jon.Campbell@MetraTech.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 1:30 PM
> > > To: 'david bell'; Evertcc@aol.com;
> dioxin-l-admin@venice.essential.org
> > > Cc: dioxin-l@venice.essential.org
> > > Subject: RE: [Dioxin-l] [Dioxin] Open List?
> > >
> > > David,
> > >
> > > Sometimes I think you're beginning to "get it" and then you fall
> back
> > > into the industry line.
> > >
> > > Virtually all - if not all - of the products currently made with
> > > organochlorines could be made without them, with no loss of health or
> > > modernity or lifestyle. It was just a choice we made, a wrong turn in
> our
> > > industrial development promoted by those industries (Dow, Monsanto,
> > > DuPont)
> > > who would benefit from the widespread use of technology they developed
> and
> > > patented.
> > >
> > > Refrigeration can be done with ammonia, and it can be done totally
> > > without chemicals or moving parts as well (thermocouple refrigerators
> were
> > > actually manufactured). PVC is used because of convenience and INITIAL
> > > cheapness; its continuing costs to society in pollution of the
> biosphere
> > > are
> > > tens or hundreds of times as great as its initial cost.
> > >
> > > Pesticides - and especially DDT - do not need to be used against
> > > malaria. It is a disease of poverty. Clean up the breeding grounds -
> or
> > > get
> > > people away from them - and you get rid of malaria. In emergencies you
> use
> > > BTI, the natural insecticidal which is non-toxic (it's a soil
> bacteria)
> > >
> > > Pharmaceuticals are organochlorines and organofluorines
> specifically
> > > because it is impossible for ordinary people or small companies to
> concoct
> > > them. And they are all probably toxic to the human body, given what we
> > > know
> > > about them. Hormone disruptors, etc. Remember fen-phen, an
> organofluorine?
> > > The same result comes from 5-HTP, a safe and natural isolate of the
> > > African
> > > Griffonia plant. But you won't see any pharmaceutical firms selling
> it,
> > > because they can't patent it. As soon as the "discovery" is made,
> anyone
> > > can
> > > make it. So the use of organochlorines is a POLITICAL and ECONOMIC
> rather
> > > than TECHNICAL decision.
> > >
> > > As pointed out in a previous posting, pentachlorophenol is being
> used
> > > to
> > > treat telephone poles. It has been used to dip entire log homes. It is
> > > used
> > > to treat outdoor wood for people's porches and decks, where they will
> eat
> > > BBQ and soak up dioxin each time they touch the wood. Penta is the
> most
> > > dioxin-contaminated commercial chemical, TCDD level upwards of 100,000
> ppb
> > > in some batches. This is a political and economic, not technical
> decision
> > > to
> > > allow this super-toxic poison to be manufactured and sold. It is
> another
> > > PCB-like disaster which is still ongoing.
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: david bell [mailto:burnt_paper@hotmail.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 3:36 PM
> > > To: Evertcc@aol.com; dioxin-l-admin@venice.essential.org
> > > Cc: dioxin-l@venice.essential.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Dioxin-l] [Dioxin] Open List?
> > >
> > >
> > > >David,
> > > >
> > > >You've got to help me here. What lake(s)? The Great Lakes? The lake
> in
> > > >Central Park? You are assuming that deposition in the late 19th
> century
> > > is
> > > >from natural sources. It's my understanding that foundries/smelters
> etc.
> > > >are
> > > >now recognized as possible sources of air borne dioxin during that
> > > period.
> > > >The only unexplaned dioxin deposits that I know of have been in clay
> > > >deposits(deep?)
> > >
> > > I did quote my source, so you could have looked. You can also look at
> :
> > > http://www.epa.gov/ncea/pdfs/sedcore.pdf
> > > which looks at historical data from 11 lakes throughout the US from
> the
> > > 1700s onwards. Also, there is a study of dioxins in various foods
> > > available
> > > at:
> > > http://www.epa.gov/ncea/docs/histmdw.wpd
> > > or
> > > http://www.epa.gov/ncea/pdfs/histmdw.pdf
> > >
> > > I would like to see your reference about the clay and dioxin.
> > >
> > >
> > > >Where did you hear about falling dioxin levels? What consensus?
> Dioxin
> > > >levels
> > > >in what? In the air? In B&J's ice cream? Have you seen the posting on
> > > >backyard burn barrels? have you had any of the new pentachlorophenol
> > > >treated
> > > >utility poles installed in your neighborhood lately? Penta is loaded
> with
> > > >dioxin and is becoming the pole treatment of choice (over creosote).
> > >
> > > The references above find that dioxin TEQs now are lower than they
> were in
> > >
> > > the 60's/ 70's.
> > >
> > > What you have given above is a lot of examples that dioxin is there;
> well,
> > >
> > > that's a start. But they are not comparisons showing that the level of
> > > dioxins are rising.
> > >
> > > In a way, that is quite important. If you were able to show that
> dioxin
> > > levels were rising by access to decent data, then it is a very
> important
> > > thing to know; something that would inform your view of what action
> was
> > > necessary. I don't know the literature here particularly well, so I
> would
> > > be
> > >
> > > very interested to hear what is out there.
> > >
> > > >What are you trying to tell us about DDT? You admit that it is a
> known
> > > >problem, and it deserves "effort", then you tell us that it saves
> lives
> > > in
> > > >third world countries. Which is it going to be? Perhaps we humans
> have
> > > >learned nothing from one of our earliest environmental mistakes. We
> > > have
> > > >created a super race of DDT resistant mosquitos which proliferate in
> > > human
> > > >created habitats like tires, containers and stagant water in natural
> > > >drainage
> > > >systems screwed up by harebrained development schemes. People use
> spent
> > > DDT
> > > >containers for everything. A favorite use of DDT is to spray the
> interior
> > > >walls of homes because it kills mosquitos (some) on contact for many
> > > months
> > > >afterwards. That, to me is a reckless threat to public health with no
> > > long
> > > >term effect on the mosquito population.
> > >
> > > That's easy for you to say; I guess that you are not in much danger
> from
> > > dying from malaria. I think there are lots of extremely poor people
> with
> > > no
> > > medical cover in the third world who suffer terribly from malaria;
> they
> > > might have a different view.
> > >
> > >
> > > >I'm sorry. I don't think organo halogens have proven to be that
> >useful.
> > >
> > > Have you got a fridge ? a freezer ? Do you buy your food in the
> > > supermarket,
> > >
> > > which uses HCFCs in their fridges and freezers ? Have you ever had to
> rely
> > >
> > > on hospital supplies which need refrigeration ?
> > > Have you ever had any medication ? (maybe half are organohalogens)
> > > Have you ever had a general anaesthetic (all organohalogens) ?
> > > Got a pacemaker ?
> > > Ever used plastics ? so many use organochlorines either as a
> constituent,
> > > or
> > >
> > > to dissolve the starting chemicals. If you have a car, you can bet you
> > > have.
> > >
> > > >Just
> > > >because our society uses them does not mean that they are really
> > > necessary.
> > > >Does our society need all of the disposable vinyl crap that it throws
> > > away
> > > >and burns in incinerators? Vinyl siding is the rage now. In 20-25
> years
> > > it
> > > >will be getting torn off of the millions of homes upon which it was
> > > >installed
> > > >because it disintegrates from UV exposure. Then what? our stupid
> wasteful
> > > >society doesn't need all of the absurd rubbish that it consumes to
> > > maintain
> > > >its fabric. It just thinks it does because that is what it is told by
> > > >propagandists. Checked out the latest Pokemon?
> > >
> > > How does society stop all the stupid crap ? good question- what is
> your
> > > answer ? would you ban Pokemon ?
> > >
> > > I share your concerns- and maybe I would like to ban Pokemon- but I
> don't
> > > know it's so easy, nor that banning organochlorines helps.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > > david
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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