[Dioxin-l] Request for reference

[Arnold Schecter]

PCP contains higher chlorinated dioxins and dibenzofurans and usually =
little or no tcdd. -Arnold Schecter

Arnold Schecter, MD, MPH
Professor of Environmental Sciences
Univ. of Texas School of Public Health-Dallas
5323 Harry Hines Blvd., V8.112
Dallas, Texas 75235-9128
(214) 648-1096
(214) 648-1081 (Fax)
email: arnold.schecter@email.swmed.edu
email: ajschecter@aol.com

>>> "Friedmann, Andy" <AFriedmann@ensr.com> 01/06/00 10:08AM >>>
Joy,

Would you mind posting the reference(s) regarding the 100,000 ppb of TCDD =
in
pentachlorophenol?  Thanks.

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Catalano, Dennis [mailto:dennis.catalano@weyerhaeuser.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 10:42 AM
To: Archie Beaton; Archie Beaton; 'hope@igc.org'=20
Cc: 'david bell'; Evertcc@aol.com; dioxin-l-admin@venice.essential.org;
'Jon Campbell'; dioxin-l@venice.essential.org; Archie Beaton; Archie
Beaton; Archie Beaton
Subject: RE: [Dioxin-l] [Dioxin] Open List?


Joy

What stance do I have on dioxin?  I have been in the dioxin analytical
business long before you probably knew what it was.  I was only stating =
that
I did not think TCDD was at 100,000 ppb in pentachlorophenol.  I am not
brainwashed, and I have no idea why you feel I am.  I usually only respond
to analytical questions on this list and in no way show my stance other =
than
an analytical chemist on these issues.  It is no wonder that some of the
"industrial" folks on this list have a problem with the tone of some of =
the
"activists".  We try to state some facts and just because I have
Weyerhaeuser on my paycheck, I am thrown to the wolves.  I am sorry you =
live
near an antiquated mill, but I have no regrets as to how I feed my family.


Dennis Catalano
dennis.catalano@weyerhaeuser.com=20
253-924-6242

> ----------
> From: 	Joy Towles[SMTP:hope@igc.org]=20
> Reply To: 	hope@igc.org=20
> Sent: 	Wednesday, January 05, 2000 4:54 PM
> To: 	Catalano, Dennis; Archie Beaton; Archie Beaton
> Cc: 	'david bell'; Evertcc@aol.com; dioxin-l-admin@venice.essential.org;=

> 'Jon Campbell'; dioxin-l@venice.essential.org; Archie Beaton; Archie
> Beaton; Archie Beaton
> Subject: 	Re: [Dioxin-l] [Dioxin] Open List?
>=20
> Dear Dennis,
>     For information on reducing (no, how about stopping?) dioxin  in
> effluent,
> product, sludge, sediments, fish, air, and other nasty things that =
result
> from
> chlorine and chlorine dioxide bleaching pulp and paper mills , please
> contact
> Archie Beaton, if you don't already know him at  <cfpa1@attglobal.net>
> or
> ask to get on our pulp and paper discussion group.   You might also read
> your
> own industry publications which a few years ago started saying that the
> pulp
> and paper industry must stop the use of chlorine and chlorine dioxide,
> not
> only to stop the creation of dioxins and other nasty organochlorines, =
but
> also
> to stay financially stable and remain competetive in the marketplace.  =
If
> you
> eat, you should care.
>     Not everyone on this list knows that Weyerhauser purchased all of
> Procter &
> Gamble's polluting chlorine-bleaching pulp mills in the U.S. when their
> dirty
> little dioxin secrets were exposed......all the mills except the one =
down
> here
> in Perry, Florida, that even Weyerhauser's PR guy told me was so =
antique,
> so
> full of bad problems, that even Weyerhauser didn't want it.
>     We am so glad that we now know what you do for a living.........that
> completely explains your stance on this issue.  It' quite a pity that =
you
> are
> so brainwashed by the company by whom you are employed.
>=20
> Joy
>=20
> Joy Towles Ezell
> President and Founder
> HOPE (Help Our Polluted Environment) in Taylor County,Florida
> P. O. Box 327
> Salem, Florida   32356
> email:  hope@igc.org=20
> 850 584-7087
>=20
>=20
> "Catalano, Dennis" wrote:
>=20
> >         "Penta is the most
> > > dioxin-contaminated commercial chemical, TCDD level upwards of =
100,000
> ppb
> > > in some batches. This is a political and economic, not technical
> decision
> > > to
> > > allow this super-toxic poison to be manufactured and sold. It is
> another
> > > PCB-like disaster which is still ongoing."
> > >
> > You state that some batches of penta contain upwards of 100,000 ppb
> TCDD.  I
> > would like to see some of those references.  I have been in the
> analytical
> > chemistry business for 23 years running dioxin testing for most of =
that
> time
> > and have never seen thoses kinds of mumbers for TCDD.   I would =
beleive
> OCDD
> > at that kind of level, but most penta (especially newer batches) =
contain
> > very little or no TCDD.  Even so, I would not want my house dipped in
> penta
> > or creosote.  The rest of these talks have been interesting to say the
> least
> > over the past week or so.
> >
> > bio:
> >
> > Analytical chemist 23 years experience
> > worked in the consulting business, industial area, environmental
> clean-up
> > area of this field at different stages of my life.  Now work for the
> paper
> > industry working on ways to reduce dioxin releases in effluent and
> product.
> >
> > Dennis Catalano
> > dennis.catalano@weyerhaeuser.com=20
> > 253-924-6242
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From:         Jon Campbell[SMTP:Jon.Campbell@MetraTech.com]=20
> > > Sent:         Wednesday, January 05, 2000 1:30 PM
> > > To:   'david bell'; Evertcc@aol.com;
> dioxin-l-admin@venice.essential.org=20
> > > Cc:   dioxin-l@venice.essential.org=20
> > > Subject:      RE: [Dioxin-l] [Dioxin] Open List?
> > >
> > > David,
> > >
> > >     Sometimes I think you're beginning to "get it" and then you fall
> back
> > > into the industry line.
> > >
> > >     Virtually all - if not all - of the products currently made with
> > > organochlorines could be made without them, with no loss of health =
or
> > > modernity or lifestyle. It was just a choice we made, a wrong turn =
in
> our
> > > industrial development promoted by those industries (Dow, Monsanto,
> > > DuPont)
> > > who would benefit from the widespread use of technology they =
developed
> and
> > > patented.
> > >
> > >     Refrigeration can be done with ammonia, and it can be done =
totally
> > > without chemicals or moving parts as well (thermocouple refrigerators=

> were
> > > actually manufactured). PVC is used because of convenience and =
INITIAL
> > > cheapness; its continuing costs to society in pollution of the
> biosphere
> > > are
> > > tens or hundreds of times as great as its initial cost.
> > >
> > >     Pesticides - and especially DDT - do not need to be used against
> > > malaria. It is a disease of poverty. Clean up the breeding grounds -
> or
> > > get
> > > people away from them - and you get rid of malaria. In emergencies =
you
> use
> > > BTI, the natural insecticidal which is non-toxic (it's a soil
> bacteria)
> > >
> > >     Pharmaceuticals are organochlorines and organofluorines
> specifically
> > > because it is impossible for ordinary people or small companies to
> concoct
> > > them. And they are all probably toxic to the human body, given what =
we
> > > know
> > > about them. Hormone disruptors, etc. Remember fen-phen, an
> organofluorine?
> > > The same result comes from 5-HTP, a safe and natural isolate of the
> > > African
> > > Griffonia plant. But you won't see any pharmaceutical firms selling
> it,
> > > because they can't patent it. As soon as the "discovery" is made,
> anyone
> > > can
> > > make it. So the use of organochlorines is a POLITICAL and ECONOMIC
> rather
> > > than TECHNICAL decision.
> > >
> > >     As pointed out in a previous posting, pentachlorophenol is being
> used
> > > to
> > > treat telephone poles. It has been used to dip entire log homes. It =
is
> > > used
> > > to treat outdoor wood for people's porches and decks, where they =
will
> eat
> > > BBQ and soak up dioxin each time they touch the wood. Penta is the
> most
> > > dioxin-contaminated commercial chemical, TCDD level upwards of =
100,000
> ppb
> > > in some batches. This is a political and economic, not technical
> decision
> > > to
> > > allow this super-toxic poison to be manufactured and sold. It is
> another
> > > PCB-like disaster which is still ongoing.
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: david bell [mailto:burnt_paper@hotmail.com]=20
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 3:36 PM
> > > To: Evertcc@aol.com; dioxin-l-admin@venice.essential.org=20
> > > Cc: dioxin-l@venice.essential.org=20
> > > Subject: Re: [Dioxin-l] [Dioxin] Open List?
> > >
> > >
> > > >David,
> > > >
> > > >You've got to help me here. What lake(s)? The Great Lakes? The lake
> in
> > > >Central Park? You are assuming that deposition in the late 19th
> century
> > > is
> > > >from natural sources. It's my understanding that foundries/smelters
> etc.
> > > >are
> > > >now recognized as possible sources of air borne dioxin during that
> > > period.
> > > >The only unexplaned dioxin deposits that I know of have been in =
clay
> > > >deposits(deep?)
> > >
> > > I did quote my source, so you could have looked. You can also look =
at
> :
> > > http://www.epa.gov/ncea/pdfs/sedcore.pdf=20
> > > which looks at historical data from 11 lakes throughout the US from
> the
> > > 1700s onwards. Also, there is a study of dioxins in various foods
> > > available
> > > at:
> > > http://www.epa.gov/ncea/docs/histmdw.wpd=20
> > > or
> > > http://www.epa.gov/ncea/pdfs/histmdw.pdf=20
> > >
> > > I would like to see your reference about the clay and dioxin.
> > >
> > >
> > > >Where did you hear about falling dioxin levels? What consensus?
> Dioxin
> > > >levels
> > > >in what? In the air? In B&J's ice cream? Have you seen the posting =
on
> > > >backyard burn barrels? have you had any of the new pentachlorophenol=

> > > >treated
> > > >utility poles installed in your neighborhood lately? Penta is =
loaded
> with
> > > >dioxin and is becoming the pole treatment of choice (over creosote).=

> > >
> > > The references above find that dioxin TEQs now are lower than they
> were in
> > >
> > > the 60's/ 70's.
> > >
> > > What you have given above is a lot of examples that dioxin is there;
> well,
> > >
> > > that's a start. But they are not comparisons showing that the level =
of
> > > dioxins are rising.
> > >
> > > In a way, that is quite important. If you were able to show that
> dioxin
> > > levels were rising by access to decent data, then it is a very
> important
> > > thing to know; something that would inform your view of what action
> was
> > > necessary. I don't know the literature here particularly well, so I
> would
> > > be
> > >
> > > very interested to hear what is out there.
> > >
> > > >What are you trying to tell us about DDT? You admit that it is a
> known
> > > >problem, and it deserves "effort", then you tell us that it saves
> lives
> > > in
> > > >third world countries.  Which is it going to be? Perhaps we humans
> have
> > > >learned nothing from one of our  earliest environmental mistakes.  =
We
> > > have
> > > >created a super race of DDT resistant mosquitos which proliferate =
in
> > > human
> > > >created habitats like tires, containers and stagant water in =
natural
> > > >drainage
> > > >systems screwed up by harebrained development schemes. People use
> spent
> > > DDT
> > > >containers for everything. A favorite use of DDT is to spray the
> interior
> > > >walls of homes because it kills mosquitos (some) on contact for =
many
> > > months
> > > >afterwards. That, to me is a reckless threat to public health with =
no
> > > long
> > > >term effect on the mosquito population.
> > >
> > > That's easy for you to say; I guess that you are not in much danger
> from
> > > dying from malaria. I think there are lots of extremely poor people
> with
> > > no
> > > medical cover in the third world who suffer terribly from malaria;
> they
> > > might have a different view.
> > >
> > >
> > > >I'm sorry. I don't think organo halogens have proven to be that
> >useful.
> > >
> > > Have you got a fridge ? a freezer ? Do you buy your food in the
> > > supermarket,
> > >
> > > which uses HCFCs in their fridges and freezers ? Have you ever had =
to
> rely
> > >
> > > on hospital supplies which need refrigeration ?
> > > Have you ever had any medication ? (maybe half are organohalogens)
> > > Have you ever had a general anaesthetic (all organohalogens) ?
> > > Got a pacemaker ?
> > > Ever used plastics ? so many use organochlorines either as a
> constituent,
> > > or
> > >
> > > to dissolve the starting chemicals. If you have a car, you can bet =
you
> > > have.
> > >
> > > >Just
> > > >because our society uses them does not mean that they are really
> > > necessary.
> > > >Does our society need all of the disposable vinyl crap that it =
throws
> > > away
> > > >and burns in incinerators? Vinyl siding is the rage now. In 20-25
> years
> > > it
> > > >will be getting torn off of the millions of homes upon which it was
> > > >installed
> > > >because it disintegrates from UV exposure. Then what? our stupid
> wasteful
> > > >society doesn't need all of the absurd rubbish that it consumes to
> > > maintain
> > > >its fabric. It just thinks it does because that is what it is told =
by
> > > >propagandists. Checked out the latest Pokemon?
> > >
> > > How does society stop all the stupid crap ? good question- what is
> your
> > > answer ? would you ban Pokemon ?
> > >
> > > I share your concerns- and maybe I would like to ban Pokemon- but I
> don't
> > > know it's so easy, nor that banning organochlorines helps.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > > david
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com=20
> > >
> > >
> > >
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>=20


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