[Dioxin-l] [Dioxin] Open List?
Catalano, Dennis
dennis.catalano@weyerhaeuser.com
Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:14:45 -0800
"Penta is the most
> dioxin-contaminated commercial chemical, TCDD level upwards of 100,000 ppb
> in some batches. This is a political and economic, not technical decision
> to
> allow this super-toxic poison to be manufactured and sold. It is another
> PCB-like disaster which is still ongoing."
>
You state that some batches of penta contain upwards of 100,000 ppb TCDD. I
would like to see some of those references. I have been in the analytical
chemistry business for 23 years running dioxin testing for most of that time
and have never seen thoses kinds of mumbers for TCDD. I would beleive OCDD
at that kind of level, but most penta (especially newer batches) contain
very little or no TCDD. Even so, I would not want my house dipped in penta
or creosote. The rest of these talks have been interesting to say the least
over the past week or so.
bio:
Analytical chemist 23 years experience
worked in the consulting business, industial area, environmental clean-up
area of this field at different stages of my life. Now work for the paper
industry working on ways to reduce dioxin releases in effluent and product.
Dennis Catalano
dennis.catalano@weyerhaeuser.com
253-924-6242
> ----------
> From: Jon Campbell[SMTP:Jon.Campbell@MetraTech.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 1:30 PM
> To: 'david bell'; Evertcc@aol.com; dioxin-l-admin@venice.essential.org
> Cc: dioxin-l@venice.essential.org
> Subject: RE: [Dioxin-l] [Dioxin] Open List?
>
> David,
>
> Sometimes I think you're beginning to "get it" and then you fall back
> into the industry line.
>
> Virtually all - if not all - of the products currently made with
> organochlorines could be made without them, with no loss of health or
> modernity or lifestyle. It was just a choice we made, a wrong turn in our
> industrial development promoted by those industries (Dow, Monsanto,
> DuPont)
> who would benefit from the widespread use of technology they developed and
> patented.
>
> Refrigeration can be done with ammonia, and it can be done totally
> without chemicals or moving parts as well (thermocouple refrigerators were
> actually manufactured). PVC is used because of convenience and INITIAL
> cheapness; its continuing costs to society in pollution of the biosphere
> are
> tens or hundreds of times as great as its initial cost.
>
> Pesticides - and especially DDT - do not need to be used against
> malaria. It is a disease of poverty. Clean up the breeding grounds - or
> get
> people away from them - and you get rid of malaria. In emergencies you use
> BTI, the natural insecticidal which is non-toxic (it's a soil bacteria)
>
> Pharmaceuticals are organochlorines and organofluorines specifically
> because it is impossible for ordinary people or small companies to concoct
> them. And they are all probably toxic to the human body, given what we
> know
> about them. Hormone disruptors, etc. Remember fen-phen, an organofluorine?
> The same result comes from 5-HTP, a safe and natural isolate of the
> African
> Griffonia plant. But you won't see any pharmaceutical firms selling it,
> because they can't patent it. As soon as the "discovery" is made, anyone
> can
> make it. So the use of organochlorines is a POLITICAL and ECONOMIC rather
> than TECHNICAL decision.
>
> As pointed out in a previous posting, pentachlorophenol is being used
> to
> treat telephone poles. It has been used to dip entire log homes. It is
> used
> to treat outdoor wood for people's porches and decks, where they will eat
> BBQ and soak up dioxin each time they touch the wood. Penta is the most
> dioxin-contaminated commercial chemical, TCDD level upwards of 100,000 ppb
> in some batches. This is a political and economic, not technical decision
> to
> allow this super-toxic poison to be manufactured and sold. It is another
> PCB-like disaster which is still ongoing.
>
> Jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: david bell [mailto:burnt_paper@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 3:36 PM
> To: Evertcc@aol.com; dioxin-l-admin@venice.essential.org
> Cc: dioxin-l@venice.essential.org
> Subject: Re: [Dioxin-l] [Dioxin] Open List?
>
>
> >David,
> >
> >You've got to help me here. What lake(s)? The Great Lakes? The lake in
> >Central Park? You are assuming that deposition in the late 19th century
> is
> >from natural sources. It's my understanding that foundries/smelters etc.
> >are
> >now recognized as possible sources of air borne dioxin during that
> period.
> >The only unexplaned dioxin deposits that I know of have been in clay
> >deposits(deep?)
>
> I did quote my source, so you could have looked. You can also look at :
> http://www.epa.gov/ncea/pdfs/sedcore.pdf
> which looks at historical data from 11 lakes throughout the US from the
> 1700s onwards. Also, there is a study of dioxins in various foods
> available
> at:
> http://www.epa.gov/ncea/docs/histmdw.wpd
> or
> http://www.epa.gov/ncea/pdfs/histmdw.pdf
>
> I would like to see your reference about the clay and dioxin.
>
>
> >Where did you hear about falling dioxin levels? What consensus? Dioxin
> >levels
> >in what? In the air? In B&J's ice cream? Have you seen the posting on
> >backyard burn barrels? have you had any of the new pentachlorophenol
> >treated
> >utility poles installed in your neighborhood lately? Penta is loaded with
> >dioxin and is becoming the pole treatment of choice (over creosote).
>
> The references above find that dioxin TEQs now are lower than they were in
>
> the 60's/ 70's.
>
> What you have given above is a lot of examples that dioxin is there; well,
>
> that's a start. But they are not comparisons showing that the level of
> dioxins are rising.
>
> In a way, that is quite important. If you were able to show that dioxin
> levels were rising by access to decent data, then it is a very important
> thing to know; something that would inform your view of what action was
> necessary. I don't know the literature here particularly well, so I would
> be
>
> very interested to hear what is out there.
>
> >What are you trying to tell us about DDT? You admit that it is a known
> >problem, and it deserves "effort", then you tell us that it saves lives
> in
> >third world countries. Which is it going to be? Perhaps we humans have
> >learned nothing from one of our earliest environmental mistakes. We
> have
> >created a super race of DDT resistant mosquitos which proliferate in
> human
> >created habitats like tires, containers and stagant water in natural
> >drainage
> >systems screwed up by harebrained development schemes. People use spent
> DDT
> >containers for everything. A favorite use of DDT is to spray the interior
> >walls of homes because it kills mosquitos (some) on contact for many
> months
> >afterwards. That, to me is a reckless threat to public health with no
> long
> >term effect on the mosquito population.
>
> That's easy for you to say; I guess that you are not in much danger from
> dying from malaria. I think there are lots of extremely poor people with
> no
> medical cover in the third world who suffer terribly from malaria; they
> might have a different view.
>
>
> >I'm sorry. I don't think organo halogens have proven to be that >useful.
>
> Have you got a fridge ? a freezer ? Do you buy your food in the
> supermarket,
>
> which uses HCFCs in their fridges and freezers ? Have you ever had to rely
>
> on hospital supplies which need refrigeration ?
> Have you ever had any medication ? (maybe half are organohalogens)
> Have you ever had a general anaesthetic (all organohalogens) ?
> Got a pacemaker ?
> Ever used plastics ? so many use organochlorines either as a constituent,
> or
>
> to dissolve the starting chemicals. If you have a car, you can bet you
> have.
>
> >Just
> >because our society uses them does not mean that they are really
> necessary.
> >Does our society need all of the disposable vinyl crap that it throws
> away
> >and burns in incinerators? Vinyl siding is the rage now. In 20-25 years
> it
> >will be getting torn off of the millions of homes upon which it was
> >installed
> >because it disintegrates from UV exposure. Then what? our stupid wasteful
> >society doesn't need all of the absurd rubbish that it consumes to
> maintain
> >its fabric. It just thinks it does because that is what it is told by
> >propagandists. Checked out the latest Pokemon?
>
> How does society stop all the stupid crap ? good question- what is your
> answer ? would you ban Pokemon ?
>
> I share your concerns- and maybe I would like to ban Pokemon- but I don't
> know it's so easy, nor that banning organochlorines helps.
>
> cheers
> david
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dioxin-l mailing list
> Dioxin-l@lists.essential.org
> http://lists.essential.org/mailman/listinfo/dioxin-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dioxin-l mailing list
> Dioxin-l@lists.essential.org
> http://lists.essential.org/mailman/listinfo/dioxin-l
>