[A2k] Paris TACD Meeting: Draft 'understanding' on RMI and TPMs
Philippe Aigrain
philippe.aigrain@wanadoo.fr
Mon Jun 5 11:34:03 2006
Dear Peter,
Your message highlights what is a key cause of misunderstandings in this
discussion. DRM, as pushed by both the media and technology supplier
industries, have nothing to do with managing rights for the sake of creator=
s
or even for their own sake. The "rights management" part (RM) was used as a
convenient enveloppe for something entirely different, that is
technology-enabled copyright enforcement (control and locks on access and
usage of digital works), what you would call "active DRM". As a result ther=
e
are anti-DRM demonstration and no-DRM movements that are conducted by peopl=
e
(such as myself) who have of course nothing against artists being remunerat=
ed
based on observation of usage of their works (what you call "passive DRMs")=
.
The same people stood prominently for existing (radio, blank carriers,
photocopy, sometimes TV) legal licensing schemes that are based on such
passive observation, and are among the supporters of new forms of legal
licensing schemes such as the French proposal for a global license covering
non-commercial exchanges of music files over the Internet.
I believe that using <DRM> in any positive sense will lead to our position
being instrumentalised by content and technology industry lobbies and to
severe opposition from the anti-DRM movements in France, Germany and the US=
.
If we want to go a step beyond this Newspeak element and the corresponding
misunderstandings, it is also useful to acknowledge that the "passive
observation" of Internet-usage calls for observation methods that are
entirely different from -for instance- broadcast fees. It is no longer a
matter of observation of a few hundred or thousands broadcast sources that
are incorporated organisations, but a world in which everyone is a source a=
nd
destination, with all related matters of data privacy. That's why the
promoters of the Internet global licenses support redistribution based on
network traffic statistics that monitor upload and downloads (require schem=
es
to prevent faking, but these schemes are certainly not more complex than th=
e
radio and TV monitoring schemes that I saw funded by the EC research
programmes for years).
So indeed, we should make clear that we support measurement of audiences fo=
r
works, as long as it respects user privacy and does not involve any control
on what happens on user machines. There is frequent arguing that statistica=
l
network traffic analysis will be biased or disfavour creators with small
audiences. I believe it will be on the contrary be much more favourable to
them, and certainly it can't be worse than what our present collective
societies achieve in this respect. When analyzing it, one should not only
consider the redistribution within one given distribution of attention, but
also how the change in the distribution of attention. See:
http://numenor.lib.uic.edu/fmconference/viewabstract.php?id=3D38
for a detailed analysis on this respect.
Finally, contrarily to what many state, one can have coexistence between
subscription pay artist communities, download pay (with acces control but n=
o
further DRM usage control) and global licensing for non-commercial exchange=
s.
Together with direct payment to artists, and fees being paid to competitive
intermediaries as suggested by Jamie Love, they constitute important scheme=
s
to complement global licensing. In this respect see the proposal by the
would-be candidate for presidency S=C3=A9gol=C3=A8ne Royal :
--------
http://www.desirsdavenir.org/index.php?da=3D9&proposition=3D66
Il nous faut sortir du mod=C3=A8le =C3=A9conomique unique, et le r=C3=B4le =
de l=E2=80=99Etat est de
conforter la coexistence entre plusieurs modes de r=C3=A9mun=C3=A9ration et=
de
financement :
=E2=80=A2 Les revenus directs, la vente de fichiers se substituant progress=
ivement =C3=A0
la vente de CD
=E2=80=A2 Les revenus indirects : les interm=C3=A9diaires (webradios, plate=
s-formes de P2P)
reverseraient une partie de leur chiffre d=E2=80=99affaires aux titulaires =
de droits
en contrepartie du droit d=E2=80=99exploiter commercialement les =C5=93uvre=
s. Il faudra,
pour cela, inciter les titulaires de droits =C3=A0 licencier leurs catalogu=
es,
selon des modalit=C3=A9s compatibles avec l=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie de nouvea=
ux entrants et sans
les assortir de DRM qui r=C3=A9duisent l=E2=80=99utilit=C3=A9 pour les util=
isateurs.
=E2=80=A2 Des revenus =C2=AB mutualis=C3=A9s =C2=BB, qu=E2=80=99il s=E2=80=
=99agisse de la redevance pour copie
priv=C3=A9e, ou de la cr=C3=A9ation, pour les =C3=A9changes gratuits entre =
personnes, d=E2=80=99un
syst=C3=A8me de licence globale forfaitaire.
Pour avancer sur cette voie, une concertation approfondie devra =C3=AAtre e=
nfin
engag=C3=A9e, bien s=C3=BBr avec tous les acteurs concern=C3=A9s et les cit=
oyens, mais aussi
avec nos partenaires europ=C3=A9ens, une solution exclusivement fran=C3=A7a=
ise =C3=A9tant
difficile =C3=A0 mettre en =C5=93uvre.
--
Best,
Philippe Aigrain
Le Lundi 5 Juin 2006 15:55, vous avez =C3=A9crit :
> I find this stuff all very interesting, but without some sort of 'passive=
'
> DRM it is hard to see how the creators or the rights holders will get pai=
d
> for the use of their work. How else are we going to be able to estimate
> usage of particular works or recordings?
> Does everyone feel that people who write and perform music should be able
> to make a living from doing this ?
> Does everyone object to the idea of the creators and performers getting
> paid for broadcast usage as they do at the moment? If not can we learn fr=
om
> this example to look at the internet and other digital distribution syste=
ms
> ? In other words what is the real argument about? Is it about the total
> abolition of copyright, and if so what is the replacement method for
> payhing the creative community, or don't we care ?
> I certainly do not dispute the suggestion that the current approach of th=
e
> corporate music industry is anathema, but what do we want in its place, a=
nd
> how,in practical terms, are we going to get it implemented?
> This is going to be a challenging , but stimulating conference !
> Cheers,
> Peter Jenner
>
> > From: Philippe Aigrain <philippe.aigrain@wanadoo.fr>
> > Organization: Personnel
> > Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:39:21 +0200
> > To: a2k@lists.essential.org
> > Cc: nah.maillist@fastmail.net, "Michelle Childs"
> > <michelle.childs@cptech.org>, "Benoit Machuel"
> > <benoit.machuel@fim-musicians.com>, "Dominick Luquer"
> > <dluquer@fia-actors.com>, "Peter Jenner" <peter.jenner@sinman.co.uk>,
> > "David Stopps" <davidstopps@fmlmusic.com>, "Philippe Kern"
> > <pkern@kernnet.com>, "Manon Ress" <manon.ress@cptech.org>, "James Love"
> > <james.love@cptech.org>, "Ben Wallis" <bwallis@consint.org>
> > Subject: Re: [A2k] Paris TACD Meeting: Draft 'understanding' on RMI and
> > TPMs
> >
> > Further to exchanges betwene Nick and Michelle on this subject. My
> > impression is that Nick's proposal intention is good, but that it takes=
a
> > too specialised approach, not addressing some major concerns related to
> > TPM, DRMs or compulsory RMI. Here is a proposal for a streamlined set o=
f
> > points, including one on this last aspect (impact on the freedom in the
> > overall information infrastructure) :
> > ----
> > 1- Rights information should be the enabler of a freely endorsed social
> > contract between creators and users, not a vessel to force TPMs and DRM=
s
> > on them. Thus, there should be no compulsory implementation of rights
> > information related checks, and no associated locks on usage.
> >
> > 2- TPM systems must be submitted to the a priori check of the relevant
> > information security and privacy or data protection authorities, and ca=
n
> > not be applied to works without the informed consent of their creators.
> > Commercial media carriers and services must provide adequate informatio=
n
> > to consumers about usage limitations introduced by TPMs and DRMs.
> >
> > 3- Legal usage rights, for instance those expressed as exceptions or
> > limitations to copyright, should always be immediately effective in
> > relation to TPMs : any TPM must implement such rights, and TPMs should
> > not be protected against circumvention when such circumvention is neede=
d
> > to legal or contractually authorised usage.
> >
> > 4- The protection of interoperable access to works (accross devices,
> > accross software platforms) must be such as to guarantee:
> > - the ability of creators to make their works accessible to the widest
> > public including under licenses that grant free access and/or usage
> > rights, and without losing the benefit of redistribution of fees
> > collected under legal licensing schemes
> > - the freedom of software writers to disclose and license under the
> > license of their choice the source code of software that achieves this
> > interoperability. ----
> > Re the comments of Nick on compatibility with existing legal treaties a=
nd
> > laws: the only possible problem is with the first part of my point 3 (T=
PM
> > must a priori ...) and EUCD. Leaving aside the fact that we should neve=
r
> > stop at considering needed changes in treaties and laws, the actual
> > transpositions for EUCD show that there is a wide margin of
> > interpretation in
> > implementation. Ireland has implemented this first part of point 3, and
> > several other countries the second part.
> > --
> > Philippe Aigrain
> >
> > Le Vendredi 2 Juin 2006 18:29, nah.maillist@fastmail.net a =C3=A9crit :
> >> Firstly thanks very much for such a comprehensive reply and for what i=
t
> >> is worth I think these are all good points.
> >>
> >> With respect to point 1, you understand corrrectly.
> >>
> >> I do understand that there are many groups which object to RMI, TPMs,
> >> and DRMs completely. Basically the point underlying the first draft is
> >> that it isn't realistic for countries to un-ratify the Internet Treati=
es
> >> (and certainly many representatives of music constituencies would not
> >> wish for that to happen), and therefore in those countries there will =
be
> >> protections of RMI and TPMs. The question is whether or not we can agr=
ee
> >> some common-sense regime to regulate the use of these technologies so
> >> that the positive outweighs the negative.
> >>
> >> 1(a) Of course. The use or non-use of RMI and TPMs is entirely separat=
e
> >> from any other issue. If services want to use them, they'd have to
> >> 'follow the rules'. If they don't wish to, then they wouldn't. That
> >> said, RMI is just information and since quite a lot of that informatio=
n
> >> could - and indeed is - of interest (artist name, composer, performers=
,
> >> date recorded, etc) providing it is accurate having RMI attached to a
> >> song isn't actually harmful, which leads us to point 1(b)
> >>
> >> 1(b) Of course we could put something in to cover the privacy issue. I=
t
> >> may be useful to state that a model which relies upon actual usage to
> >> determine the level of royalties which go to which artists does not
> >> require information about the individuals who use a song. However, I d=
o
> >> take the point that information on users would be held somewhere - and
> >> the disclosure of that information should be regulated. Could you
> >> perhaps provide some language that covers this? I know that you're far
> >> more familiar with this area than I am unfortunately.
> >>
> >> 1(c) Completely understand what you mean. My language here is frankly =
a
> >> bit cumbersome anyway. As with 1(b), could I bother you for replacemen=
t
> >> language?
> >>
> >> 1(d) Personally I agree completely. The question is: would such a
> >> requirement actually fulfil the legal obligations that WPPT/WCT partie=
s
> >> have to one another? And, in the EU, would the requirement breach the
> >> provisions of Directive 2001/29/EC? If the answer to is yes,then we
> >> cannot ask states to go this extra step. We'd have to come at this a
> >> different way.
> >>
> >> 1(e) Sorry to do this to you again, but any chance for a sentence that
> >> would work for you?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original message -----
> >> From: "Michelle Childs" <michelle.childs@cptech.org>
> >> To: "Nick Ashton-Hart" <nah.maillist@fastmail.net>
> >> Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 08:46:06 -0400 (EDT)
> >> Subject: Re: [A2k] Paris TACD Meeting: Draft 'understanding' on RMI an=
d
> >> TPMs
> >>
> >> Nick
> >> Thanks for this helpful first draft. I have a couple of initial
> >> comments:
> >>
> >> 1) This is intended to be a section in a wider document, but it may
> >> nonetheless be helpful to put it in context. A number of groups are
> >> opposed to the use of TPMs or RMI's at all. This section, as I
> >> understand
> >> it is drafted on the basis that where they are used( and there are man=
y
> >> on
> >> the market now) , these principles should apply, rather than a wholesa=
le
> >> endorsement of their use?
> >>
> >> 2) I think it would be helpful to add a few things to the principles y=
ou
> >> set out:
> >>
> >> a) A caveat that nothing in these principles would prevent the use of
> >> alternative models. For example some providers are using flat fees.
> >>
> >> b)In relation to RMI's the issue may not be restricting access but it
> >> does
> >> raise quite profound privacy issues. There needs to at least be a
> >> reference to data protection principles. For more on this see the TACD
> >> resolution on TPMS.( www.tacd.org)
> >>
> >> c) you refer to 'Be used to prevent access, or make access unreasonabl=
y
> >> difficult, for a use that is covered by an exception or limitation to
> >> copyright in connection with the works and/or performances in question
> >> were they acquired in any non-digital form;' I am concerned that using
> >> as
> >> a benchmark what is allowed for a non digital form may lock in current
> >> non
> >> digital usage ( which are already inadequate for some digital uses)
> >> rather
> >> than anticipate new uses- this can be dealt with by drafting. Either
> >> remove ref to non- digital form or preferably expand to cover broader
> >> consumer usage. See beuc digital rights campaign for examples of what
> >> some EU cosnumer orgs have been calling for in this area. Or are you
> >> intending this borader usage issue to be covered by the fair use
> >> principle?
> >>
> >>
> >> d) Remedies for breach. I think the current draft misses one of the
> >> most
> >> important points behind the pre registration regulatory regime idea,
> >> which is that unless the TPM passes this clearance procedure they DO N=
OT
> >> BENEFIT FROM THE LEGAL PROTECION AGAINST CIRCUMVENTION. The draft does
> >> not
> >> mention this but instead introduces a new idea that there should be a
> >> trustmark to show that it does comply. Leaving aside whether such a
> >> trustmark is necessary, such an omission weakens the idea, which is t=
o
> >> both provide a process for review and wide public debate but also an
> >> incentive to comply with public interest and copyright exemptions.
> >>
> >> Under the US and EU copyright laws DRMs automatically aquire legal
> >> protection against circumvention. The regulatory clearance idea is th=
at
> >> instead of provding automatic legal protection to DRM regimes, vendors
> >> of
> >> DRM regimes or publishers are required to first register their
> >> systems,
> >> in order to apply for protection. Only registered systems would benef=
it
> >> from the anti cirumvention protections under copyright law.
> >> Regsitration would not be automatic and would involve an evaluation of
> >> the
> >> system and negotiations over features of the system to protect user
> >> rights.
> >>
> >> For example, Adobe might apply for anti-circumvention protection for a
> >> particular version of its ebook publishing technologies. In doing so, =
it
> >> could be asked to explain how the DRM regime will respond to legitimat=
e
> >> uses of the works under public (rather than private) standards for
> >> access.
> >> The legal protection would not then be forthcoming, until the regulato=
r
> >> was satisfied that the DRM regime did not inappropriately restrict
> >> access
> >> to the work
> >>
> >> Its therefore important that the link between registration and
> >> protection
> >> is restored in the draft.
> >>
> >>
> >> e) While I support the call for a simplified and effective adr system=
,
> >> under the anti-circumvention provisions in EU and US law the burden is
> >> now on users to enforce their rights if a DRM scheme infringes them,
> >> rather than on rights holders to respect exceptions and prove breach,
> >> which is why its important to reverse some of the incentives as above.=
I
> >> also think that as a last resort, there should be the legal right to
> >> circumvent such drm, to make use of exceptions and limitations .
> >>
> >>
> >> I hope these comments are helpful.
> >> Michelle
> >>
> >>> --
> >>> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> >>> Good morning A2Kers everywhere!
> >>>
> >>> For those that do not know me, I'm helping the TACD Secretariat with
> >>> the
> >>
> >> drafting of the Paris Accord for that meeting as it relates to music. =
My
> >> background is as a music manager, and also the former
> >>
> >>> Executive Director of the International Music Managers Forum (which
> >>
> >> represents the managers of popular featured artists worldwide);
> >>
> >>> during my time at the IMMF - and I'm glad to say that the current
> >>
> >> management of the IMMF have continued to work in this area - I was a
> >> strong proponent of the audience - represented by consumer groups - an=
d
> >> the artists - represented by themselves and by those who they have
> >> charged with protecting their interests - working together for their
> >> mutual interests.
> >>
> >>> I believe that consumers and creators are natural allies who should
> >>> work
> >>
> >> together to see that the commercial exploitation of music serves the t=
wo
> >> ends of the "product chain" rather than serving those in the middle wh=
o
> >> are supposed to make the music of the world as accessible as they can.
> >>
> >>> In January of this year, I was asked to speak to the Legal Affairs
> >>
> >> Committee of the EU Parliament in a debate on the forthcoming
> >>
> >>> directive on IP enforcement. The speech that I made was written by
> >>
> >> myself but substantial elements were contributed by the
> >>
> >>> representatives of audiovisual performers (FIA), independent record
> >>
> >> producers (IMPALA) and music managers (IMMF). Part of that speech was =
a
> >> rather pointed condemnation of the way in which DRMs are being used by
> >> intermediaries not for ends which actually work for anyone, but for en=
ds
> >> which don't really work - and do harm the interests of many.
> >>
> >>> Out of that grew an interest by NGOs connected with the music world t=
o
> >>
> >> seek a dialogue with consumer representatives on whether we can jointl=
y
> >> agree an approach, politically, in relation to DRM technologies.
> >>
> >>> As a part of the drafting work I'm helping with for the TACD
> >>> Conference, I have prepared the text below as a starting place for th=
at
> >>
> >> discussion. The principles behind it come out of the speech I mentione=
d,
> >> but at this point it is time to see what others think of it.
> >>
> >>> It would clearly be a major thing if we could come out of the Paris
> >>
> >> meeting with some kind of common understanding of how to deal with DRM=
s,
> >> and the protection of RMI and TPMs which underpin them. I offer the te=
xt
> >> below to you in the hope that it may get us at least part of the way
> >> "there". If we can get something that we can agree on, we can of cour=
se
> >> attach this to the Paris Accord, though I would submit that the issues
> >> surrounding these technologies are so contentious and important that i=
t
> >> merits a separate document of this kind as well.
> >>
> >>> This text is not sponsored by any NGOs, nor has it been reviewed or
> >>
> >> agreed by any of them; It has been drafted by me, though I have tried
> >> to keep in mind the interests and views of both creators and consumers
> >> in drafting it. I'm sure that all will be very happy to tell me just
> >> what they think!
> >>
> >>> I'm forwarding the text to CPTech and TACD so that it can be made
> >>
> >> available for download since the A2K list doesn't allow attachments.
> >>
> >>> -------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Rights Management Information (RMI) and Technical Protection Measures
> >>
> >> (TPM) when applied to works and performances under copyright are
> >> increasingly protected by law in countries throughout the world, to
> >> comply with the provisions of the WIPO Internet Treaties of 1996. Thes=
e
> >> technologies when used together are most commonly known as Digital
> >> Rights Management (DRM) and have frequently been implemented in ways
> >> both Consumers and Creators see as harmful to their interests.
> >>
> >>> Instead of being used to provide essential information about creative
> >>
> >> goods, and provide an interoperable infrastructure for the
> >>
> >>> development of new business models to make more flexible access to
> >>
> >> cultural goods possible, these technologies are used by
> >>
> >>> intermediaries to unreasonably restrict legitimate use by the public
> >>
> >> without the consent or involvement of the creators.
> >>
> >>> There is a clear failure of the marketplace to provide
> >>> implementations of these technologies that are constructive,
> >>> interoperable, reasonable, and equitable. Despite repeated calls for =
a
> >>
> >> rethink of the current uses of these technologies by the consumer
> >> movement, creators themselves, and even independent phonogram
> >>
> >>> producers, the abuse of these technologies continues =C2=96 indeed, i=
n many
> >>
> >> countries, the abuses continue to become more serious.
> >>
> >>> Creators and Consumers agree on the following principles and believe
> >>
> >> that they should be given the force of law in any part of the world
> >>
> >> where RMI and TPMs are themselves the subject of legal protection:
> >>> That the use of RMI to provide information about a work or
> >>> performance, those who created it, and their rights in their
> >>> creations, is useful, as long as:
> >>> The information is accurate, and;
> >>> The RMI is used to provide information, not as the basis for a TPM.
> >>> That
> >>
> >> RMI be used constructively =C2=96 such as providing the
> >>
> >>> =C2=91informational backbone=C2=92 facilitating the development of ne=
w business
> >>
> >> models that make creative goods available more flexibly, to more of th=
e
> >> public, by helping the development of systems to equitably
> >>
> >>> remunerate creators and rights-holders based upon actual uses of
> >>
> >> cultural goods in the digital environment equitably and transparently.
> >> That the abusive use of TPMs be prevented by obligating vendors of the=
se
> >>
> >> technologies to assure that they cannot:
> >>> Prohibit, or limit, access and/or use which is lawful with respect to
> >>
> >> the works and/or performances being protected,
> >>
> >>> Be used to prevent access, or make access unreasonably difficult, for=
a
> >>
> >> use that is covered by an exception or limitation to copyright in
> >> connection with the works and/or performances in question were they
> >> acquired in any non-digital form;
> >>
> >>> Prohibit, or limit, access and uses which would be possible when the
> >>
> >> same materials are acquired in physical form,
> >>
> >>> Prohibit, or limit, access and uses which would be viewed as =C2=93fa=
ir use=C2=94
> >>
> >> or =C2=93fair dealing=C2=94 by a reasonable person;
> >>
> >>> Be deployed without the active, informed consent of the creators and
> >>
> >> relevant rights-holders;
> >>
> >>> Fail to interoperate across devices like personal computers, mobile
> >>
> >> communications devices, and consumer electronics which might
> >>
> >>> reasonably be used by the public;
> >>> Prevent access and use, or make access and use difficult, to anything
> >>
> >> that is in the public domain;
> >>
> >>> The extent and nature of any limitations these technologies may
> >>> impose on the user should be clearly visible on any product or
> >>> service so that the members of the public may make informed choices;
> >>>
> >>> We believe that an essential component of giving legal effect to the
> >>
> >> above is the following:
> >>> A regulatory regime that requires the application for advance
> >>> registration and testing of new TPMs by an independent agency to ensu=
re
> >>
> >> that they comply with the rules governing their use as
> >>
> >>> outlined above. Successfully passing the tests should allow the
> >>> vendor of the TPM to display a mark that makes clear that the TPM has
> >>
> >> been approved and certified, giving the public, and the creator
> >>
> >>> community, confidence that any restrictions imposed by the TPM are bo=
th
> >>
> >> within the law and reasonable;
> >>
> >>> In the instance that, despite the safeguards above, a TPM is used whi=
ch
> >>
> >> breaches the above principles, an affordable, expeditious, and
> >> transparent complaint mechanism is available for members of the
> >>
> >>> public and the creator community to use. The process should be
> >>> capable of requiring that breaches of the above principles by vendors
> >>
> >> and/or those who make use of infringing TPMs must be remedied, and whe=
re
> >> relevant, egregious infringements allow for fines to be levied which a=
re
> >> sufficient to form a deterrent to future infringements.
> >>
> >>> --
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Nick Ashton-Hart
> >>> PO Box 32160
> >>> London N4 2XY
> >>> United Kingdom
> >>> Tel: +44 (20) 8800-1011
> >>> Fax: +44 (20) 7681-3135
> >>> mobile: +44 (7774) 932798
> >>> email: nashton@spamcop.net
> >>> Win IM: ashtonhart@hotmail.com / AIM/iSight: nashtonhart@mac.com /
> >>
> >> Skype: nashtonhart
> >>
> >>> Online Bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashtonhart
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> A2k mailing list
> >>> A2k@lists.essential.org
> >>> http://lists.essential.org/mailman/listinfo/a2k
> >>
> >> --
> >> Michelle Childs -Head of European Affairs
> >> Consumer Project on Technology in London
> >> 24, Highbury Crescent, London, N5 1RX,UK.
> >> Tel:+44(0)207 226 6663 ex 252.
> >> Mob:+44(0)790 386 4642. Fax: +44(0)207 354 0607
> >> http://www.cptech.org
> >>
> >> Consumer Project on Technology in Washington, DC
> >> 1621 Connecticut Ave, NW, Washington, DC 20009 USA .Tel.:
> >> +1.202.332.2670,Fax: +1.202.332.2673
> >>
> >> Consumer Project on Technology in Geneva
> >> 1 Route des Morillons, CP 2100, 1211 Geneva 2, Switzerland
> >> Tel: +41 22 791 6727
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> A2k mailing list
> >> A2k@lists.essential.org
> >> http://lists.essential.org/mailman/listinfo/a2k
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
> >>--- ------------ Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par
> >> l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a et=
e
> >> detecte.
> >
> > --
> > Philippe Aigrain
> > (message personnel)
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>------------ Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par
> l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete
> detecte.
--
This a personal correspondance that does not necessarily
represent the official position of the Society for
Public Information Spaces