RE: DIOXIN GAS ALERT - BELGIUM, NETHERLANDS (02)

[Jon Campbell <Jon.Campbell@MetraTech.com>]

The dioxins and furans from a single, large transformer, if burned in a hot
fire, are fearsome. The State Office Building in Binghamton, New York is a
good example. It had to be abandoned and still stands (as far as I know) as
a dioxin monument in the middle of a major city, because a single
transformer in the basement of the building caught fire and spread dioxins
and furans into the heating ducts. When I last checked (a couple of years
ago) it could not be dismantled because of the threat of spreading the
poisons through the city.

In Canton, Massachusetts, a farmhouse full of PCB transformers burned,
leaving a huge plume of very severe dioxin contamination all over the town,
and making several residences so that they are included in what is now a
Superfund site.

If the transformer oil is, say, 50% or 100% PCB, then there could be several
KILOGRAMS of dioxins and furans that could be released in gaseous and
adsorbed form. If I remember right, that is approximately the amount
released in the Seveso disaster in Italy.

The chlorophiles are quite wrong technically about gaseous dioxin. The point
about these chemicals (PCBs, dioxins, furans) is that they are constantly
changing state between gas/liquid state (in adsorbed media) and gaseous
state. This is stated quite definitively in the EPA dioxin reassessment -
that we live in a dioxin/furan cloud that hovers very near to the ground. In
a PCB fire the main amount of dioxins are going to be carried in microscopic
and sub-microscopic particulates from the fire, spread all over the city
depending on the weather at the time of the fire. The amount of dioxin will
be measurable (as it was with the vinyl fire in Hamilton, Ontario).

The chlorophiles are undoubtedly similar to the workers at WR Grace in
Acton, MA several years ago, who questioned the ability of Acton residents
to evaluate whether Grace had contaminated Acton's water supply. These
workers, fearing that their jobs would vanish, appealed to the government to
stop Acton's "fanatics" from "attacking" Grace in the media. Grace
eventually closed and dismantled the plant, agreed to pay Acton $16 million
for polluting the water supply, and installed an air stripping tower to
clean the aquifer that will need to run in perpetuity.

If the chlorophiles work in vinyl or other organochlorine plants, they need
to understand that they are part of a poisonous, destructive technology that
should never have come about, and that they and their families are being
poisoned by their employers. Too bad they have taken to promote the vinyl
industry party line.

Regards
Jon Campbell

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Ryder [mailto:Ralph@tcpublications.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 1:27 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list DIOXIN-L
Subject: Re: DIOXIN GAS ALERT - BELGIUM, NETHERLANDS (02)


In article <199912201013_MC2-91C1-171D@compuserve.com>, Joseph R Parrish
Jr <JoeParrish@compuserve.com> writes
>Forwarded:
>
>Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:29:54 -0500 (EST)
>From: ProMED-mail <promed@promed.isid.harvard.edu>
>Subject: PRO> Dioxin gas alert -  Belgium, Netherlands (02)
>
>DIOXIN GAS ALERT - BELGIUM, NETHERLANDS (02)
>********************************************
>A ProMED-mail post
><http://www.promedmail.org>
>
>[see also:
>Dioxin gas alert -  Belgium, Netherlands     991214134401
>Dioxin health assessments (03)                   990613233208
>Dioxin in meat, poultry, eggs banned again - Belgium   991109142553]
>
>[1]
>Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:24:59 -0800
>From: ecroddy@miis.edu (Eric Croddy)
>
>
>Is this really a threat worthy of international concern? Or even local
for
>that matter? Transformers explode all the time, and dioxin is toxic but
>only
>depending on length of exposure and dosage, of course, like anything
else.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to tell us what the length of exposure
and dosage dioxin becomes toxic? I believe the WHO have accepted dioxin
as a carcinogen and as such there is no safe level? I ask you this as a
great many scientists are telling us there is no safe level of dioxin
and you obviously know something they don't? 


>The recent dioxin scares in Belgium seem to be way out of proportion to
>other, omnipresent risks to human health. I guarantee you more people
in the Belgian towns mentioned will be at risk for coronary failure 
>fear, rather than the actual risk to health posed by dioxin. 

Is your real name Rip Van Winkle by any chance? Manz et al (1995) showed
There was a significant increase in heart attacks, ischemic heart
disease linked very closely with dioxin exposure. Your repeating, parrot
fashion, a well rehearsed industrial script with more holes in it than a
piece of cheese. If you cannot contribute anything other than outdated
industrial bullsh*t don't bother posting.


>
>- --
>Eric "Ace" Croddy
>ecroddy@miis.edu
>
>***
>[2]
>Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:50:28 +0100
>From: Ferdinand Engelbeen <Ferdinand.Engelbeen@ping.be>
>
>
>What happened was that an overheated transportband in a magnesium parts
>factory caught fire and the whole factory was burned down, including a
>transformer with PCBs in it. As water cannot be used (magnesium only burns
>harder with water!) and massive doses of [fire extinguishing] powder were
>not available, the fire brigade could only cool down the surrounding
>buildings and let the factory burn out. As far as I know, the explosions
>were not from the transformer, but from welding gas bottles that were in
>the
>place.
>
>When PCBs are burning, they can form chlorinated dioxins/furans (mainly
>furans). On soot laden surfaces, after a fire involving PCBs, one can find
>0.1-200 microgm TEQ dioxin per sq.m. in the direct neighbourhood of the
>fire
>(see ref. below).
>
>Without visible soot, you only will find background levels, as
>dioxins/PAH's
>are formed and mainly remain on soot. So if people didn't inhale or eat
>much
>smoke/soot, the risk will be very low, if there was a "dioxin" risk at all.
>
>The differences in dioxin load in soot are mainly caused by differences in
>the  conditions: temperature of incineration (and cooling time), the oxygen
>concentration and the presence of copper as catalyst. As in this case,
>magnesium burns with very high temperatures (spectacular views on TV!), I
>don't expect that there was a "dioxin" cloud, although any smoke is toxic,
>mainly from its CO [carbon monoxide] content, and secondly for its
>particulate content (including high doses of PAH's, compared to dioxins).
>
>Further, magnesium is not a highly "volatile" metal, not even highly
>flammable, but if it is ignited, it produces a lot of heat and light. And
>dioxin "gas" doesn't exist, most dioxin in the environment is firmly bound
>to soot, only a small part can be found as vapour.
>
>Ref: Theisen, J.: "Untersuchung der moglichen Umweltgefahrdung beim brand
>von Kunststoffen" (Investigation of the possible environmental
>contamination
>from plastics fires). Umweltbundesamt Berlin, Forschungsbericht 104 09 222,
>1991.
>
>- ---
>The Chlorophiles are an independent non-profit organisation of workers in
>the chlorine and PVC industry who want to respond to allegations against
>their work. We find that we are working responsibly and with responsible
>care to make products for the well-being of humanity. 

More industrial philanthropists. With so many caring chemical workers
how the hell have we got ourselves in the mess we are in? Nice to know
their job and the life style their wages bring have nothing to do with
it.

>Humanity should not
>be
>excluded from the benefits of chlorine on the basis of prejudices and false
>or erroneous information.

It should also be safeguarded from manipulating industrialists' who care
for nothing but their own self interests. Since when have workers in any
industry, especially the chlorine industry, been 'independent' in issues
surrounding their processes? In truth you are simply trying to safeguard
your jobs by reciting 'selected' information that suits your
views/needs. 
>
>In the course of our discussions, we have gathered a lot of information on
>dioxin sources and formation, see our web site at:
>http://www.ping.be/chlorophiles/Eng/ChlorineDiSrc.html
>
>- --
>Ferdinand Engelbeen
>Chairman Chlorophiles
>Oude Ertbrandstraat 12
>2940 Stabroek, Belgium
>Tel. & fax: +32-3-664.46.63
><Ferdinand.Engelbeen@ping.be>
>
>[The beauty of ProMED-mail is that there always seem to be experts out
>there
>reading us & ready to set us straight on the latest health scare 

To all genuine contributors on the list I wish a very Merry Christmas
and the Health to enjoy the coming millennium. To the industrialists'
and their apologists/workers, I wish you twice over what you wish the
rest of us.


Ralph Ryder
**************************************************************** 
Ralph Ryder
Communities Against Toxics
PO Box 29
Ellesmere Port
Cheshire UK
CH66 3TX
Email ralph@tcpublications.freeserve.co.uk
Tel/Fax 0151 339 5473
****************************************************************