Re: DIOXIN GAS ALERT - BELGIUM, NETHERLANDS (02)

[Ralph Ryder <Ralph@tcpublications.freeserve.co.uk>]

In article <199912201013_MC2-91C1-171D@compuserve.com>, Joseph R Parrish
Jr <JoeParrish@compuserve.com> writes
>Forwarded:
>
>Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:29:54 -0500 (EST)
>From: ProMED-mail <promed@promed.isid.harvard.edu>
>Subject: PRO> Dioxin gas alert -  Belgium, Netherlands (02)
>
>DIOXIN GAS ALERT - BELGIUM, NETHERLANDS (02)
>********************************************
>A ProMED-mail post
><http://www.promedmail.org>
>
>[see also:
>Dioxin gas alert -  Belgium, Netherlands     991214134401
>Dioxin health assessments (03)                   990613233208
>Dioxin in meat, poultry, eggs banned again - Belgium   991109142553]
>
>[1]
>Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:24:59 -0800
>From: ecroddy@miis.edu (Eric Croddy)
>
>
>Is this really a threat worthy of international concern? Or even local
for
>that matter? Transformers explode all the time, and dioxin is toxic but
>only
>depending on length of exposure and dosage, of course, like anything
else.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to tell us what the length of exposure
and dosage dioxin becomes toxic? I believe the WHO have accepted dioxin
as a carcinogen and as such there is no safe level? I ask you this as a
great many scientists are telling us there is no safe level of dioxin
and you obviously know something they don't? 


>The recent dioxin scares in Belgium seem to be way out of proportion to
>other, omnipresent risks to human health. I guarantee you more people
in the Belgian towns mentioned will be at risk for coronary failure 
>fear, rather than the actual risk to health posed by dioxin. 

Is your real name Rip Van Winkle by any chance? Manz et al (1995) showed
There was a significant increase in heart attacks, ischemic heart
disease linked very closely with dioxin exposure. Your repeating, parrot
fashion, a well rehearsed industrial script with more holes in it than a
piece of cheese. If you cannot contribute anything other than outdated
industrial bullsh*t don't bother posting.


>
>- --
>Eric "Ace" Croddy
>ecroddy@miis.edu
>
>***
>[2]
>Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:50:28 +0100
>From: Ferdinand Engelbeen <Ferdinand.Engelbeen@ping.be>
>
>
>What happened was that an overheated transportband in a magnesium parts
>factory caught fire and the whole factory was burned down, including a
>transformer with PCBs in it. As water cannot be used (magnesium only burns
>harder with water!) and massive doses of [fire extinguishing] powder were
>not available, the fire brigade could only cool down the surrounding
>buildings and let the factory burn out. As far as I know, the explosions
>were not from the transformer, but from welding gas bottles that were in
>the
>place.
>
>When PCBs are burning, they can form chlorinated dioxins/furans (mainly
>furans). On soot laden surfaces, after a fire involving PCBs, one can find
>0.1-200 microgm TEQ dioxin per sq.m. in the direct neighbourhood of the
>fire
>(see ref. below).
>
>Without visible soot, you only will find background levels, as
>dioxins/PAH's
>are formed and mainly remain on soot. So if people didn't inhale or eat
>much
>smoke/soot, the risk will be very low, if there was a "dioxin" risk at all.
>
>The differences in dioxin load in soot are mainly caused by differences in
>the  conditions: temperature of incineration (and cooling time), the oxygen
>concentration and the presence of copper as catalyst. As in this case,
>magnesium burns with very high temperatures (spectacular views on TV!), I
>don't expect that there was a "dioxin" cloud, although any smoke is toxic,
>mainly from its CO [carbon monoxide] content, and secondly for its
>particulate content (including high doses of PAH's, compared to dioxins).
>
>Further, magnesium is not a highly "volatile" metal, not even highly
>flammable, but if it is ignited, it produces a lot of heat and light. And
>dioxin "gas" doesn't exist, most dioxin in the environment is firmly bound
>to soot, only a small part can be found as vapour.
>
>Ref: Theisen, J.: "Untersuchung der moglichen Umweltgefahrdung beim brand
>von Kunststoffen" (Investigation of the possible environmental
>contamination
>from plastics fires). Umweltbundesamt Berlin, Forschungsbericht 104 09 222,
>1991.
>
>- ---
>The Chlorophiles are an independent non-profit organisation of workers in
>the chlorine and PVC industry who want to respond to allegations against
>their work. We find that we are working responsibly and with responsible
>care to make products for the well-being of humanity. 

More industrial philanthropists. With so many caring chemical workers
how the hell have we got ourselves in the mess we are in? Nice to know
their job and the life style their wages bring have nothing to do with
it.

>Humanity should not
>be
>excluded from the benefits of chlorine on the basis of prejudices and false
>or erroneous information.

It should also be safeguarded from manipulating industrialists' who care
for nothing but their own self interests. Since when have workers in any
industry, especially the chlorine industry, been 'independent' in issues
surrounding their processes? In truth you are simply trying to safeguard
your jobs by reciting 'selected' information that suits your
views/needs. 
>
>In the course of our discussions, we have gathered a lot of information on
>dioxin sources and formation, see our web site at:
>http://www.ping.be/chlorophiles/Eng/ChlorineDiSrc.html
>
>- --
>Ferdinand Engelbeen
>Chairman Chlorophiles
>Oude Ertbrandstraat 12
>2940 Stabroek, Belgium
>Tel. & fax: +32-3-664.46.63
><Ferdinand.Engelbeen@ping.be>
>
>[The beauty of ProMED-mail is that there always seem to be experts out
>there
>reading us & ready to set us straight on the latest health scare 

To all genuine contributors on the list I wish a very Merry Christmas
and the Health to enjoy the coming millennium. To the industrialists'
and their apologists/workers, I wish you twice over what you wish the
rest of us.


Ralph Ryder
**************************************************************** 
Ralph Ryder
Communities Against Toxics
PO Box 29
Ellesmere Port
Cheshire UK
CH66 3TX
Email ralph@tcpublications.freeserve.co.uk
Tel/Fax 0151 339 5473
****************************************************************