ADD, etc. and PCBs and Dioxin Research Faults

[GCJeffrey@aol.com]

As Louise Oram. CDC cannot post to this forum
and these questions need to be addressed,
the following are Louise's points, numbered.




=============================
Subj:    RE: Reply from "Louis Oram" ADD & PCBs
Date:   10/27/99 3:03:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   lbo7@cdc.gov (Oram, Louise)
To: GCJeffrey@aol.com ('GCJeffrey@aol.com')


Point 1  QUESTON OF INTENT
[[Tragedy of Payne Stewart Crash vs
Tragedy of poisoning tens of thousands
of school children with PCBs dioxin.
................................
Both are Tragedies.
-------------------------------------
They certainly are, my contention was
with your automatic link.
As if his ADD had automatically something
to do with the crash.
Which may not have been your intention.]]

1.  ANSWER:
This was not my intent. My intent was to
point out that a golfer, in his 40's(?) has
a diagnosis of ADD. Why?  Was he (or
his mother before conception) in one
of the highly exposed populations:
eg. Schools and golf courses are built
on cheap land, often toxic and well covered
with herbacides....PCB waste dumps?



2.  BACKGROUND, PROBLEM WITH SERVER
[[As for the rest of your email.

Just to be clear, yes I work for the CDC, I
actually am a post-doc in  the lab of Alan Poland.

Cross reference his name against dioxin and
you will see that he is the guy who discovered the
receptor, he's often referred to as the grandfather
of dioxin.

I am considered suitably qualified to referee
dioxin research for publication.

I deal in facts and get mad with the nonsense
of many of the emails in this news group.

My email comes from the UK, as it is
forwarded from the university where I
did my PhD on the Molecular toxicity
of Dioxin.

I haven't been able to forward to the newsgroup
due to the limitations of the way the email
server forwards my mail.]]


2. ANSWER, COMMENT
Ah studies are important but are by no means
the only damage by dioxin.

Now that we know who you are, I suggest
that you establish a free Yahoo etc. E-mail
account so that you can post directly.


3.  COMMENT
[[I think the link between PCB's/dioxins and
many of the conditions ascribed are
tenuous and anecdotal, at best.]]

3.  ANSWER
Drop that test tube and get out in the real
world and interview highly exposed
population groups.

 

4.  COMMENT
[[It's confusing to see these lists, certainly
for the non-dioxin person who isn't versed in
reading scientific papers and actually
assessing the science therein.]]

4. ANSWER
I find it interesting that a number of people
on this dioxin-l list have actually read the
details of statically significant research
on dioxin.


5. COMMENT
[[I can tell you from experience that there is
a load of crap data out there, published in
some pretty well respected journals. ]]

5. ANSWER
I agree, much of it comes from polluter
corporation sponsored research.


6.  COMMENT ON LISTS OF "DIOXIN INDUCED DISEASES"
[[Back to the lists that are often seen...on
the top you will see cancer,

OK, so you say to yourself, well science has some
pretty clear ways of demonstrating that a
chemical is carcinogenic, and some pretty
hard core levels of classification
i.e Class I, human, Class II animal, etc]]

6. ANSWER-COMMENT
Agree cancers like Non-Hodgkins Lympoma
are linked to dioxin and NHL is increasing
3.3% per year.


7.  COMMENT
[[And where do we find dioxin...that depends
on the year, and government administration.]]

7.  ANSWER-COMMENT
Welcome to the real world....so the really
important issue in how we stop the increase
in chronic degenerative diseases like diabetes
and porphyria.

Again, dioxin induced diabetes cost about
$20,000 per household which is
$1.3 TRILLION for Medicare-Private Insurance
cost for the existing cases over their lifetime
and 

the cost of diabetes is doubling every 10 years.

The CDC has known this for years but has not
taken action to study large populations like
the entire county of Duval, Florida with an
8% diabetes rate (National Average is 6%)

By even a narrow look at cost to taxpayer,
the CDC and our corrupt Congress (corrupt
is John McCain's word) have FAILED TO
PROTECT OUR GENES AND OUR MONEY.


8.  COMMENT - LISTS OF DISEASES CONT.
[[But it's on the list so we can go along with
that.... this must be a good list....then you
will see

Wasting Syndrome,

teratogenic effects,

immune effects,

again, seen the data....pretty convincing....]]]

8.  ANSWER-COMMENT
Agree, dioxin is toxic.


9.  COMMENT DIABETES:

[[but we now find the more tenuous things,
diabetes,]]

9.  ANSWER-COMMENT
See my previous comments on CDC failing
to protect our genes and tax money.

Also see the National Library of Medicine
list of papers at the end of this E-mail.
Tell us which papers are not valid and why.


10.  QUESTION-COMMENT
[[but we now find the more tenuous things,
ADD.]] 
Again ADD/ADHD symptoms and diagnosis
have been rising at alarming rates ..... and
again the CDC and a corrupt Congress are
"not finding what they are not looking for"
with respect to protecting our genes and
protecting our tax money.

Again, drop that test tube and go out and
do a health registry on a whole county
subject to say medical waste incinerators
and paper mills.

Compare the results to a county of unexposed
people......oh sorry, the CDC and Congress
have sat on this issue for so long that there
are no unexposed people on planet earth.   
6 billion pounds of PCBs were produced by
sociopaths and then, in a panic "disposed of"
often by burning.


11.  QUESTION--COMMENT
[[But there on the same list...so they
must be fact.......?]]

11.  ANSWER--COMMENT
I have picked four costly, increasing,
and common conditions for my website:
1. ADD/ADHD
2. Diabetes
3. Porphyria
4. Non Hodgkins Lymphoma

Other conditions are "icing on a putrid
cake."

You really did not read my whole web
site, did you?

Do you use formaldehyde in your lab,
formaldehyde has 16 symptoms of AADD,
Adult Attention Deficit Disorder. 



11.  QUESTION -- COMMENT
[[Now lets be factual about this....most of the
data that is available on the effects of dioxin
comes from animal studies.....

I could give you a whole list of examples of
chemicals that have shown one effect in a 
rat or mouse and a very different effect on a
human.]]


12.  ANSWER -- COMMENT
This discussion started with ADD/ADHD/
Cognitive Deficits in human.

The 1994 EPA TCDD Dioxin Report, Chapter 9
cites 1.26 parts per trillion dioxin as causing
thyroid (endocrine) disruption mediated birth
defects in a monkey that was used to prove
drug safety because, genetically, it is the
closed animal to humans.

Are you implying the FDA has been incompetent
in showing drug safety by using this type test
animal?

READ THE EPA REPORT AND CITED RESEARCH!!!!



13. QUESTION--COMMENT
[[Take dioxin (TCDD)....when you compare
us to many other animals we are pretty
unresponsive/less sensitive.]]

[[So is it correct to say X amount of
chemical causes Y effect in a mouse
therefore the safe limit for humans is Z....
but that's how it's done.]]

13.  ANSWER-COMMENT
A basic fault with CDC promoted research
is to "not find what we are not looking for
or do not want to find."
e.g. Avoid looking at dioxin in fetuses and
in people who exposed to other chemicals.

Dioxin almost never works along in producing
the symptoms of chronic degenerative
diseases.

Dioxin is a "primary toxin" which causes
P450 chemical detox system disfunction
by overloading the P450 system.

Porphyria induction runs parallel.

Thereafter, additional symptoms and
gene damage occur by building up
of common environmental toxins like
zylenes, formadehyde etc. found in common
consumer products like rugs.

Ooooooo, that would mean taking on rug
and toothpaste manufacturers......CDC
cannot do that......... polluter companies
give research money to universities and
we would not get that high paying job
on the revolving door from the CDC....


14.  QUESTION-COMMENT
[[Also, to their great shame, the EPA have
adopted a linear dose method for
assessing the effects of PCB/dioxin and
the data doesn't support a linear response,
it's a political one because it's easier than
actually doing the science.]]

14.  ANSWER-COMMENT
Again, you have obviously not read my
site as I am targeting the lowest actual
reseach value of dioxin damage at 1.26
parts per trillion with a minimal safety
factor of 1/10 yielding a short term
exposure value of 0.126 ppt TCDD Dioxin
as the target clean up value.

The EPA, supported by questionable CDC ATSDR
"adjustable" Screening Values (often set by political
local health departments which contract to
write ATSDR Health Assessment Documents)
have a net result of not cleaning up Superfund sites
close to schools, where the Superfund sites
have up to 1000 parts per trillion dioxin.

All science is political and not absolute; our
morals should guide our actions.

Point in Case:
White House School, close to the White House
Florida Barber Coleman Pentachlorophenol (& dioxin)
Wood Treatment Plant in White House Florida,
Duval County-Jacksonville City, off Interstate 10.
EPA will clean site to 1000 parts per trillion.


15.  QUESTION-COMMENT
[[Even the EPA have had to concede that
their attempt to have one system for
assessing these types of chemicals for
all species is bogus.

You only have to look at the different way
fish respond to PCB when you compare
them with rats/humans/mice.]] 

15. ANSWER-COMMENT
So what, I am looking at the effect of
dioxin on 4 highly costly conditions and
statistically significant research on highly
exposed humans.
Check www.rachels.org
for a search on "statically"
e.g. Rachels Weekly # 463
 

Yes, I care about wild life and I understand
the difference in intensity of effects of dioxin
on different species.  However dioxin DOES
EFFECT most species, yes in different
ADVERSE ways.

Roaches will be here well after we poison
ourselves off the planet.....roaches change
genes by sacrificing say 999 out of 1000 of their
offspring.....this is morally and politically
incorrect for humans.


16.  QUESTION-COMMENT
[[Perhaps, it may be interesting to ask other
questions regarding graduation rates.

let me quote you a small bit of the

(ATSDR literature review on PCB Report
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/DT/pcb007.html;
or
http://sites.netscape.net/GeorgeCJeffrey/Cdcpcb
please be clearer which report you are talking
about as many of us have dioxin induced AADD) 

'-Although these data indicate transgenerational
effects, some questions remain regarding
causality because of recognized limitations in the
studies. '

'These limitations included a nonrandom
sampling technique for the selection of
the study population and limited statistical
power because of the small size of the
control group']]

16.  ANSWER-QUESTION
Well Dahhhh
We both know Congress will not give
the proper research money to do very
large scale studies that are set up to
be agreeable to independent environmental
scientists EVEN IF YOU CAN FIND
(DIOXIN) UNEXPOSED SUBJECTS MAYBE
ON MARS OR SATURN.

Because the "primary toxin" dioxin
does not work alone, one must account
for at least the other 3,700 other "secondary"
"Porphyrinogenic Substances," many of
which build up to gene damaging levels
after exposure.
Your Human Health Registry questionaires
and research should also include at least
the 314 Chemicals Listed in the book
"Chemical Exposure and Human Health"
by Cynthia Wilson.
http://ciin.org
Click on Book 

Suggest that you get a copy of Cynthia Wilson's
"Porphyrinogenic Substances" which we
submitted to the EDSTAC (EPA Endocrine
Disruptor Screening and Testing Advisory
Committee) in Orlando Florida.
See:
http://ciin.org/
Click on Library; Search in top window
for "Porphyrinogenic Substances"
"A referenced list of chemicals, metals,
and medications that can cause porphyria
and/or induce an attack.
$1.40 Order No. 0077-CIIN-94-003"

Additional health effects on listed on
my Internet site under porphyria.
e.g.
<A HREF="http://sites.netscape.net/GeorgeCJeffrey/14sympto">http://sites.netsc
ape.net/GeorgeCJeffrey/14sympto</A> 
Contact CIIN for the sources for this
symtoms lists. Sources have been
cited about 2 time in "Our Toxin Times."

A good treatment of dioxin toxicity should
cover an extensive history questionaire to
identify which of our 90,000 other US
chemcals work with dioxin to cause
gene damage/chronic degenerative
diseases in the particular patient under
study.



17. QUESTION-COMMENT
[[Makes me think of a few question of my
own....

[[how many of the mothers smoked,]]
Those secondary toxins as well as dioxin
in cigarette smoke....thanks for agreeing
with me.

[[read to their children regularly,]]
We have poisoned children with chlorine
for 100 years who have grown up to not
read to their children.....Thanks for agreeing
with me.

[[were home mothers,]]
The same corporations who made PCBs-
dioxin producing chemicals are the same
corporations who have pushed Free Trade
which has moved high paying (father only)
jobs overseas to be converted to Chinese
slave labor jobs. Vola, less mothers at
home to read to their ADD/ADHD children....
Thanks again for agreeing with me.


[[came from lower socioeconomic groups....]]
Dioxin damage produces lower socioeconomic
groups by destroy higher cognitive functions
and creating "redlined, black listed" workers
who are forced into lower paying jobs......Thanks
again for agreeing with me.



[[Did you also notice the number of times
the word 'may' can be found....]]
Yes, thank Congress for lack of independent
research money.
Understand Congress is a subsidary of the
chorine industry.

[[and]]

[[phrases like 'self-reported liver disease and
diabetes'?
Self reported.....?]]
You supply the copies of a health registry for
Duval County, Florida AND YOU FIND THE
MONEY TO SUPPLY THE MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL
TO CONFIRM THE DISEASES IN EACH PATIENT;
say $2000 a piece for the 52% of the population
which has chronic degenerative diseases and/or
ADD/ADHD symptoms leading to not graduating
from high school.
ps. Duval county has about a million people;
is that statistically significant enough for you? 


George C. Jeffrey BS ChE
CDC Test Human in the 100 year halide chemical
(chlorine-florine-bromine) experiment


[[Its a stronger argument to clearly state the
facts than to ruminate on the possibilities.]]
Come on down, you can stay in my RV in the
back yard,  bring about $100 million with you
to do the study right.

Individuals and politicians make decisions
every day based on