Re: Brett Glass's postings to mailing.freebsd.chat

[Wandered Inn <esoteric@denali.atlnet.com>]

Brett Glass wrote:
> 
> At 10:18 PM 3/8/99 +0000, Wandered Inn wrote:
> 
> >> What's "slimy" here is, in fact, to take my posting utterly out
> >> of context. What I was discussing, in fact, was the advocacy
> >> strategies already being used by promoters of Linux and their
> >> applicability to other OSes.
> >
> >Please back this up.
> 
> I could repost the message that Jamie already posted, so I hope
> you won't mind if I just refer you to it. You must have seen it,
> because you responded.

My point was, for you to back up the fact that this particular strategy
is used by promoters of Linux.  I'm not talking about real rabid
advocates, I'm talking specifically about the organization of groups of
people to 'pretend' to be rapid advocates.  This is the part that is
particularly disgusting, regardless of the product you are attempting to
endorse.  I don't recall a posting by you providing evidence of an
organized group of 'fake' Linux rabid advocates...

> 
> The interesting thing is that successful product advocacy efforts
> in the software industry are so similar. All have a "lunatic
> fringe" that the remaining advocates sometimes have to apologize
> for. All have people out there doing press releases to facilitate
> the press's job of writing about the product (and making sure that
> positive input is heard).

There's a difference between a genuine 'lunatic fringe' and attempting
to create one. I don't care what you are trying to promote, attempting
to shove it down anyone's throat is counter productive.

> 
> >The point is, I don't care if it's BSD, Linux or Microsoft.  Getting
> >into discussions with people and intentionally pissing them off is bull
> >shit.  There are better ways to do what you want to do.
> 
> I'm not "intentionally pissing them off;" all of my postings are
> carefully written and well reasoned. You haven't seen me fly off
> the handle, and you won't. I can't help it if someone else suddenly
> engages in ad hominem attacks.

It's not your posting that 'intentionally pisses people off,' rather the
group of 'fake' 'lunatic fringe advocates' you suggest should be created
that will do this.

> 
> >Worse yet, doing it, under the facade you've suggested is underhanded,
> >devious and unprofessional.
> 
> There's no facade here. As I mentioned in a recent message to Jamie
> Love, I advocate full disclosure and would NEVER advocate that anyone
> say anything that is untrue. I'm even patently disclosing what I
> believe are the elements of an effective strategy for OS advocacy
> on a public mailing list.

That's not the issue.  The issue is suggesting the creation of a 'fake'
'lunatic fringe' group to advocate the use of the product.  You're
missing the whole point.  It's not your posting, it's what would be
created if you posting was implemented.

> 
> >I recently added a 10 gig drive to my system in order to take a look at
> >some of the other OS's on out there.  Thanks you BSD has just fallen off
> >my list.
> 
> It'd be a shame if you wrote off every product I recommended (and, I
> dare say, you'd probably hurt yourself a lot by doing so). I also
> recommend BeOS, so I hope that you will still try it now that I've said
> so!

Actually, I don't put that much credence in what you have to say,
therefore it's very unlikely that your rantings would change my mind
about anything.

> 
> Also, please note that there is no product called "BSD." There are several
> commercial and freely distributed operating systems based on BSD Lite 4.4,
> a version of UNIX developed at UC Berkeley. To write off everything
> derived from that would mean avoiding Solaris, Linux, BeOS, and NeXTStep,
> all of which borrow from that work or its derivatives. Not to
> mention NetBSD, OpenBSD, and BSD/OS by BSD, Inc.

I am fully aware of the fact that their are various BSD spinoffs. I
meant to type *BSD.  I've been doing the UNIX thing for a few years now.

> 
> >The leopard has surely shown his spots...
> 
> I've never hidden any of them. Your message above, however, shows your
> willingness to condemn, and I think that's a shame.

You're damn right I condemn the creation of a group of people to pretend
to be rabid advocates.  The fact is you are suggesting that people
should begin to mislead others as to their true beliefs.

The real issue is that you should realize, as I stated earlier, you're
not going to gain any acceptance by trying to shove something down
someones throat.  That is all your 'fringe lunatics' do.  Interesting,
it's very similar to your GPL arguments.  No wonder you're advocating
such a thing.  I should have seen it earlier.  Why should I expect you
to see my reasoning behind the falacy of this approach when you use it
on this list, and apparently anywhere else you can, pretty much on a
daily basis.

> 
> --Brett

--
Until later: Geoffrey		esoteric@denali.atlnet.com

You mean you paid MONEY for Service Pack '98????