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Re: ADD, etc. and PCBs and Dioxin Research Faults
Normally I haven't criticized individuals on this list (except maybe
Bill Carroll and Steven Milloy, but they are special cases), but now I need
to make an exception. CDC researcher Louise Oram has been extremely critical
of both dioxin activists and also the fine work of many dioxin scientists,
and has claimed to me in private emails that the science is all rubbish,
TEQs are useless, and that dioxin just isn't as toxic as we make it out to
I think GCJeffrey has taken her to task adequately - that she is not
looking at the real world effects of these horrific chemicals, and just
because you can't find true "controls" (unexposed populations) doesn't mean
that dioxin isn't the cause of the afflictions we see in the real world.
CDC has a VESTED INTEREST in making dioxin non-toxic, and I'm
surprised that they even came up with as low as 1 pg/kg/day (which is 100
times the maximum allowable dose published by EPA). CDC is part of HHS,
which in turn is the parent organization of Veterans' Affairs.
DUH! IF DIOXIN IS AS POISONOUS AS DIOXIN ACTIVISTS AND EPA MAKE IT OUT
TO BE, THEN AGENT ORANGE VICTIMS HAVE BEEN POISONED AND WE OWE THEM
Louise probably believes everything she says. That is why she is the
PERFECT RESEARCHER for the CDC. She will come up with some wonderfully
self-consistent (but totally WRONG) argument about how dioxin is really not
that toxic. She'll come up with a TEQ that shows that the non-TCDD dioxins
are nowhere near as toxic as we thought, or she will debunk the whole idea
of TEQs altogether. The CDC, HHS, and VA will say they now have proof that
all the soldiers dying of NHL and other bizarre cancers and non-cancer
effects usually attributable to dioxin have nothing to do with dioxin, that
PCBs are even less toxic, that it's perfectly OK to leave schools at 1000
PPT, etc. (Every Vietnam Vet knows that according to the VA the only thing
that is caused by Agent Orange is chloracne...).
Louise, please wake up and smell the dioxin in the coffee filter.
Thanks and regards
----- Original Message -----
To: Multiple recipients of list DIOXIN-L <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 7:57 PM
Subject: ADD, etc. and PCBs and Dioxin Research Faults
> As Louise Oram. CDC cannot post to this forum
> and these questions need to be addressed,
> the following are Louise's points, numbered.
> Subj: RE: Reply from "Louis Oram" ADD & PCBs
> Date: 10/27/99 3:03:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From: email@example.com (Oram, Louise)
> To: GCJeffrey@aol.com ('GCJeffrey@aol.com')
> Point 1 QUESTON OF INTENT
> [[Tragedy of Payne Stewart Crash vs
> Tragedy of poisoning tens of thousands
> of school children with PCBs dioxin.
> Both are Tragedies.
> They certainly are, my contention was
> with your automatic link.
> As if his ADD had automatically something
> to do with the crash.
> Which may not have been your intention.]]
> 1. ANSWER:
> This was not my intent. My intent was to
> point out that a golfer, in his 40's(?) has
> a diagnosis of ADD. Why? Was he (or
> his mother before conception) in one
> of the highly exposed populations:
> eg. Schools and golf courses are built
> on cheap land, often toxic and well covered
> with herbacides....PCB waste dumps?
> 2. BACKGROUND, PROBLEM WITH SERVER
> [[As for the rest of your email.
> Just to be clear, yes I work for the CDC, I
> actually am a post-doc in the lab of Alan Poland.
> Cross reference his name against dioxin and
> you will see that he is the guy who discovered the
> receptor, he's often referred to as the grandfather
> of dioxin.
> I am considered suitably qualified to referee
> dioxin research for publication.
> I deal in facts and get mad with the nonsense
> of many of the emails in this news group.
> My email comes from the UK, as it is
> forwarded from the university where I
> did my PhD on the Molecular toxicity
> of Dioxin.
> I haven't been able to forward to the newsgroup
> due to the limitations of the way the email
> server forwards my mail.]]
> 2. ANSWER, COMMENT
> Ah studies are important but are by no means
> the only damage by dioxin.
> Now that we know who you are, I suggest
> that you establish a free Yahoo etc. E-mail
> account so that you can post directly.
> 3. COMMENT
> [[I think the link between PCB's/dioxins and
> many of the conditions ascribed are
> tenuous and anecdotal, at best.]]
> 3. ANSWER
> Drop that test tube and get out in the real
> world and interview highly exposed
> population groups.
> 4. COMMENT
> [[It's confusing to see these lists, certainly
> for the non-dioxin person who isn't versed in
> reading scientific papers and actually
> assessing the science therein.]]
> 4. ANSWER
> I find it interesting that a number of people
> on this dioxin-l list have actually read the
> details of statically significant research
> on dioxin.
> 5. COMMENT
> [[I can tell you from experience that there is
> a load of crap data out there, published in
> some pretty well respected journals. ]]
> 5. ANSWER
> I agree, much of it comes from polluter
> corporation sponsored research.
> 6. COMMENT ON LISTS OF "DIOXIN INDUCED DISEASES"
> [[Back to the lists that are often seen...on
> the top you will see cancer,
> OK, so you say to yourself, well science has some
> pretty clear ways of demonstrating that a
> chemical is carcinogenic, and some pretty
> hard core levels of classification
> i.e Class I, human, Class II animal, etc]]
> 6. ANSWER-COMMENT
> Agree cancers like Non-Hodgkins Lympoma
> are linked to dioxin and NHL is increasing
> 3.3% per year.
> 7. COMMENT
> [[And where do we find dioxin...that depends
> on the year, and government administration.]]
> 7. ANSWER-COMMENT
> Welcome to the real world....so the really
> important issue in how we stop the increase
> in chronic degenerative diseases like diabetes
> and porphyria.
> Again, dioxin induced diabetes cost about
> $20,000 per household which is
> $1.3 TRILLION for Medicare-Private Insurance
> cost for the existing cases over their lifetime
> the cost of diabetes is doubling every 10 years.
> The CDC has known this for years but has not
> taken action to study large populations like
> the entire county of Duval, Florida with an
> 8% diabetes rate (National Average is 6%)
> By even a narrow look at cost to taxpayer,
> the CDC and our corrupt Congress (corrupt
> is John McCain's word) have FAILED TO
> PROTECT OUR GENES AND OUR MONEY.
> 8. COMMENT - LISTS OF DISEASES CONT.
> [[But it's on the list so we can go along with
> that.... this must be a good list....then you
> will see
> Wasting Syndrome,
> teratogenic effects,
> immune effects,
> again, seen the data....pretty convincing....]]]
> 8. ANSWER-COMMENT
> Agree, dioxin is toxic.
> 9. COMMENT DIABETES:
> [[but we now find the more tenuous things,
> 9. ANSWER-COMMENT
> See my previous comments on CDC failing
> to protect our genes and tax money.
> Also see the National Library of Medicine
> list of papers at the end of this E-mail.
> Tell us which papers are not valid and why.
> 10. QUESTION-COMMENT
> [[but we now find the more tenuous things,
> Again ADD/ADHD symptoms and diagnosis
> have been rising at alarming rates ..... and
> again the CDC and a corrupt Congress are
> "not finding what they are not looking for"
> with respect to protecting our genes and
> protecting our tax money.
> Again, drop that test tube and go out and
> do a health registry on a whole county
> subject to say medical waste incinerators
> and paper mills.
> Compare the results to a county of unexposed
> people......oh sorry, the CDC and Congress
> have sat on this issue for so long that there
> are no unexposed people on planet earth.
> 6 billion pounds of PCBs were produced by
> sociopaths and then, in a panic "disposed of"
> often by burning.
> 11. QUESTION--COMMENT
> [[But there on the same list...so they
> must be fact.......?]]
> 11. ANSWER--COMMENT
> I have picked four costly, increasing,
> and common conditions for my website:
> 1. ADD/ADHD
> 2. Diabetes
> 3. Porphyria
> 4. Non Hodgkins Lymphoma
> Other conditions are "icing on a putrid
> You really did not read my whole web
> site, did you?
> Do you use formaldehyde in your lab,
> formaldehyde has 16 symptoms of AADD,
> Adult Attention Deficit Disorder.
> 11. QUESTION -- COMMENT
> [[Now lets be factual about this....most of the
> data that is available on the effects of dioxin
> comes from animal studies.....
> I could give you a whole list of examples of
> chemicals that have shown one effect in a
> rat or mouse and a very different effect on a
> 12. ANSWER -- COMMENT
> This discussion started with ADD/ADHD/
> Cognitive Deficits in human.
> The 1994 EPA TCDD Dioxin Report, Chapter 9
> cites 1.26 parts per trillion dioxin as causing
> thyroid (endocrine) disruption mediated birth
> defects in a monkey that was used to prove
> drug safety because, genetically, it is the
> closed animal to humans.
> Are you implying the FDA has been incompetent
> in showing drug safety by using this type test
> READ THE EPA REPORT AND CITED RESEARCH!!!!
> 13. QUESTION--COMMENT
> [[Take dioxin (TCDD)....when you compare
> us to many other animals we are pretty
> unresponsive/less sensitive.]]
> [[So is it correct to say X amount of
> chemical causes Y effect in a mouse
> therefore the safe limit for humans is Z....
> but that's how it's done.]]
> 13. ANSWER-COMMENT
> A basic fault with CDC promoted research
> is to "not find what we are not looking for
> or do not want to find."
> e.g. Avoid looking at dioxin in fetuses and
> in people who exposed to other chemicals.
> Dioxin almost never works along in producing
> the symptoms of chronic degenerative
> Dioxin is a "primary toxin" which causes
> P450 chemical detox system disfunction
> by overloading the P450 system.
> Porphyria induction runs parallel.
> Thereafter, additional symptoms and
> gene damage occur by building up
> of common environmental toxins like
> zylenes, formadehyde etc. found in common
> consumer products like rugs.
> Ooooooo, that would mean taking on rug
> and toothpaste manufacturers......CDC
> cannot do that......... polluter companies
> give research money to universities and
> we would not get that high paying job
> on the revolving door from the CDC....
> 14. QUESTION-COMMENT
> [[Also, to their great shame, the EPA have
> adopted a linear dose method for
> assessing the effects of PCB/dioxin and
> the data doesn't support a linear response,
> it's a political one because it's easier than
> actually doing the science.]]
> 14. ANSWER-COMMENT
> Again, you have obviously not read my
> site as I am targeting the lowest actual
> reseach value of dioxin damage at 1.26
> parts per trillion with a minimal safety
> factor of 1/10 yielding a short term
> exposure value of 0.126 ppt TCDD Dioxin
> as the target clean up value.
> The EPA, supported by questionable CDC ATSDR
> "adjustable" Screening Values (often set by political
> local health departments which contract to
> write ATSDR Health Assessment Documents)
> have a net result of not cleaning up Superfund sites
> close to schools, where the Superfund sites
> have up to 1000 parts per trillion dioxin.
> All science is political and not absolute; our
> morals should guide our actions.
> Point in Case:
> White House School, close to the White House
> Florida Barber Coleman Pentachlorophenol (& dioxin)
> Wood Treatment Plant in White House Florida,
> Duval County-Jacksonville City, off Interstate 10.
> EPA will clean site to 1000 parts per trillion.
> 15. QUESTION-COMMENT
> [[Even the EPA have had to concede that
> their attempt to have one system for
> assessing these types of chemicals for
> all species is bogus.
> You only have to look at the different way
> fish respond to PCB when you compare
> them with rats/humans/mice.]]
> 15. ANSWER-COMMENT
> So what, I am looking at the effect of
> dioxin on 4 highly costly conditions and
> statistically significant research on highly
> exposed humans.
> Check www.rachels.org
> for a search on "statically"
> e.g. Rachels Weekly # 463
> Yes, I care about wild life and I understand
> the difference in intensity of effects of dioxin
> on different species. However dioxin DOES
> EFFECT most species, yes in different
> ADVERSE ways.
> Roaches will be here well after we poison
> ourselves off the planet.....roaches change
> genes by sacrificing say 999 out of 1000 of their
> offspring.....this is morally and politically
> incorrect for humans.
> 16. QUESTION-COMMENT
> [[Perhaps, it may be interesting to ask other
> questions regarding graduation rates.
> let me quote you a small bit of the
> (ATSDR literature review on PCB Report
> please be clearer which report you are talking
> about as many of us have dioxin induced AADD)
> '-Although these data indicate transgenerational
> effects, some questions remain regarding
> causality because of recognized limitations in the
> studies. '
> 'These limitations included a nonrandom
> sampling technique for the selection of
> the study population and limited statistical
> power because of the small size of the
> control group']]
> 16. ANSWER-QUESTION
> Well Dahhhh
> We both know Congress will not give
> the proper research money to do very
> large scale studies that are set up to
> be agreeable to independent environmental
> scientists EVEN IF YOU CAN FIND
> (DIOXIN) UNEXPOSED SUBJECTS MAYBE
> ON MARS OR SATURN.
> Because the "primary toxin" dioxin
> does not work alone, one must account
> for at least the other 3,700 other "secondary"
> "Porphyrinogenic Substances," many of
> which build up to gene damaging levels
> after exposure.
> Your Human Health Registry questionaires
> and research should also include at least
> the 314 Chemicals Listed in the book
> "Chemical Exposure and Human Health"
> by Cynthia Wilson.
> Click on Book
> Suggest that you get a copy of Cynthia Wilson's
> "Porphyrinogenic Substances" which we
> submitted to the EDSTAC (EPA Endocrine
> Disruptor Screening and Testing Advisory
> Committee) in Orlando Florida.
> Click on Library; Search in top window
> for "Porphyrinogenic Substances"
> "A referenced list of chemicals, metals,
> and medications that can cause porphyria
> and/or induce an attack.
> $1.40 Order No. 0077-CIIN-94-003"
> Additional health effects on listed on
> my Internet site under porphyria.
> Contact CIIN for the sources for this
> symtoms lists. Sources have been
> cited about 2 time in "Our Toxin Times."
> A good treatment of dioxin toxicity should
> cover an extensive history questionaire to
> identify which of our 90,000 other US
> chemcals work with dioxin to cause
> gene damage/chronic degenerative
> diseases in the particular patient under
> 17. QUESTION-COMMENT
> [[Makes me think of a few question of my
> [[how many of the mothers smoked,]]
> Those secondary toxins as well as dioxin
> in cigarette smoke....thanks for agreeing
> with me.
> [[read to their children regularly,]]
> We have poisoned children with chlorine
> for 100 years who have grown up to not
> read to their children.....Thanks for agreeing
> with me.
> [[were home mothers,]]
> The same corporations who made PCBs-
> dioxin producing chemicals are the same
> corporations who have pushed Free Trade
> which has moved high paying (father only)
> jobs overseas to be converted to Chinese
> slave labor jobs. Vola, less mothers at
> home to read to their ADD/ADHD children....
> Thanks again for agreeing with me.
> [[came from lower socioeconomic groups....]]
> Dioxin damage produces lower socioeconomic
> groups by destroy higher cognitive functions
> and creating "redlined, black listed" workers
> who are forced into lower paying jobs......Thanks
> again for agreeing with me.
> [[Did you also notice the number of times
> the word 'may' can be found....]]
> Yes, thank Congress for lack of independent
> research money.
> Understand Congress is a subsidary of the
> chorine industry.
> [[phrases like 'self-reported liver disease and
> Self reported.....?]]
> You supply the copies of a health registry for
> Duval County, Florida AND YOU FIND THE
> MONEY TO SUPPLY THE MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL
> TO CONFIRM THE DISEASES IN EACH PATIENT;
> say $2000 a piece for the 52% of the population
> which has chronic degenerative diseases and/or
> ADD/ADHD symptoms leading to not graduating
> from high school.
> ps. Duval county has about a million people;
> is that statistically significant enough for you?
> George C. Jeffrey BS ChE
> CDC Test Human in the 100 year halide chemical
> (chlorine-florine-bromine) experiment
> [[Its a stronger argument to clearly state the
> facts than to ruminate on the possibilities.]]
> Come on down, you can stay in my RV in the
> back yard, bring about $100 million with you
> to do the study right.
> Individuals and politicians make decisions
> every day based on